14th Sep 12, 17:34 #101
- Join Date
- Jun 2003
Grew up with enough kids of aforementioned Tiger Mums around, sure many seemed outwardly normal after but the number who were seriously maladjusted socially and had issues outside of work was very high, especially with interpersonal relationships.
Agree with the rest of your post though, what drivers are looking for isn't just money nor is it just about performance. Its a combination of many different factors the majority of which we aren't privy to. Drivers can be pretty poorly advised and make serious errors of judgment too, Villeneuve going to BAR managed by Pollock is the most glaring example but Button trying to switch to Williams is another.
14th Sep 12, 19:14 #102
McLaren are a great team, but they do have a history of shooting themselves in the foot. There have been quite a few years when they've used all their extensive resources to produce a dud of a car. People talk about how great they are at developing the car, but often it's because they've produced a dud and are catching up.
I think Hamilton is a right eejit. And I think he is idolised by the GB F1 press. However, he's an amazing driver, and I love watching him drive to the best of his abilities. If he leaves McLaren now it'll be good for F1. And they'll take him back if it doesn't work out. But what he needs from Mercedes is a HUGE wad of cash, to show that they are putting their money where their mouth is. That's all that money means, and I sincerely hope, for the good of F1, it doesn't go to his head.
14th Sep 12, 22:27 #103
I know that initially in this thread I said that I figured a move to Mercedes would be a bad thing for Lewis but, the more I think of it, the better an idea it sounds to me. We all know the incredible talent that he is, but I really think that under the tutilage of Ross Brawn he would become a far more rounded driver. I think we can all agree that Schumacher would not have become the force he once was were it not for Ross Brawn. I think that working with Ross would only be a good thing. Ross along with Adrian Newey remain the two great Engineers of F1. I have always felt Hamilton should be working with one or the other and since RBR appear to not want anything other than homegrown drivers from Torro Rosso, his move to Mercedes can be the only option there.
Veering back, there are other considerations for Hamilton here, such as his greater commerical freedom, he'll probably have less commitments. It always appears to me as though McLaren drivers are overworked with PR commitments. Not alone that but it appears McLaren have only offered Hamilton 2/3 the value of his previous contract. That is an insult to a driver of his calibre and, although I'm sure he loves the team, his image would probably hurt should he accept an offer like this. Mercedes, on the other hand, are likely to be more of a force in 2014 and apparently are willing to offer him 60 million over 3 years.
I think that should Hamilton move to Mercedes then in all likelihood Schumacher will retire. It could very well be that Schumacher's retirement hinges on this and he may stay another year should Hamilton continue on at McLaren. Mercedes are putting together a strong technical team and nobody knows better how to do this than Ross Brawn. It may be that, come 2014, they will be the strongest team on the grid. We saw with Brawn in 2009 that things change really quickly in F1. If the new Mercedes upgrades work well in Singapore, that may very well prove the catalyst for Hamilton to finally put pen to paper. If McLaren really want him to stay they gotta show they want him and they need to give him more commercial freedom, which seems unlikely to happen.
All in all, when you look at it, I can't see why he would stay at McLaren. The more I think of it, the better idea it sounds to me and Hamilton seems like someone that may need a fresh start.
14th Sep 12, 23:03 #104
15th Sep 12, 12:50 #105
I also agree... if he goes to Mercedes GP I think he will become a much better sportsman and far stronger mentally... I might even become a fan.
About Michael, I like that rumour that he will drive for a final year in Ferrari. Although he may help Lewis, if he stays in Mercedes.Formula 1
15th Sep 12, 13:48 #106
- Join Date
- Jun 2003
Also while you say Ross will help Lewis become a more rounded driver I don't see Lewis' driving as his problem. Its his strength. He needs to become a more rounded PERSON and I don't see how a laid back relaxed guy like Brawn can do that. He needs his father back around him or a substitute tough father figure to give him behavioural limits.
Your understanding of the Mercedes offer is different to mine, I heard they offered him a smaller salary than McLaren but greater freedom to pursue his own sponsorship which would conversely allow him to increase his income.
15th Sep 12, 15:25 #107
I have lived with an alcoholic (Caucasian) but I've got friends and family with similar upbringing, socialised with and most have 'normal' lives with relationships and bringing up their own families.
Lewis reminds me more of cases of famous Brazillian footballers like Ronaldo, Ronaldinho and Adriano who took their wealthy lifestyle for granted - in the case of the latter Adriano had much deeper issues. He played football to please his father but struggled to cope after his death and admitted he felt lost in the world.
Clues from journalists suggests this is the case (not that I'm saying he is the next Adriano). Mark Hughe's awfully written article in this week's Autosport, and in a previous issue noted that Vettel and Alonso were not concerned with the BS of fame; a McLaren insider told James Allen "that's where his head's at" regarding Hamilton's entourage at last year's Canadian GP.The world according to Taki Inoue: https://mobile.twitter.com/takiinoue/status/301406167249326080
15th Sep 12, 15:49 #108
So he's staking his future on the prospect of Brackley doing something they've never been capable of doing before and becoming consistent championship challengers year on year? They couldn't do that with massive financial and resource input from Honda and they don't really show signs of managing it with the much reduced input from Mercedes.
15th Sep 12, 19:15 #109
this is just a power play by mclaren that will backfire, in more ways than they can anticipate.
I've always said that Ron Dennis is a tool. Perhaps he should stick to the car manufacturing side of things.
BTW current salaries
1. Fernando Alonso Ferrari €30m
2. Lewis Hamilton McLaren-Mercedes €16m
= Jenson Button McLaren-Mercedes €16m
4. Sebastian Vettel Red Bull Racing €10m
= Mark Webber Red Bull Racing €10m
= Felipe Massa Ferrari €10m
= Nico Rosberg Mercedes €10m
8. Michael Schumacher Mercedes €8m
9. Kimi Raikkonen Lotus F1 Team €5m
10. Heikki Kovalainen Caterham F1 Team €4m
11. Timo Glock Marussia F1 Team €3m
12. Kamui Kobayashi Sauber €1m
= Romain Grosjean Lotus F1 Team €1m
14. Nico Hulkenberg Force India F1 €500,000
= Sergio Perez Sauber €500,000
= Vitaly Petrov Caterham F1 Team €500,000
= Pedro de la Rosa HRT €500,000
18. Pastor Maldonado Williams €400,000
= Daniel Ricciardo Scuderia Toro Rosso €400,000
= Jean-Eric Vergne Scuderia Toro Rosso €400,000
21. Bruno Senna Williams €250,000
= Narain Karthikeyan HRT €250,000
23. Paul di Resta Force India F1 €200,000
24. Charles Pic Marussia €150,000
to me Vettel is underpaid, but RBR are a unique outlier in that they pretty much cap their salaries and the drivers know that going in. I'm sure there is supplemental income from endorsements etc, that the drivers get with no interference from RBR, But I agree, that this credit crunch argument is nonsense. Even in this weakened global economic state, there are still industries making a ton of profit, Banking, energy & oil, cars and...cough.. successful F1 teams.
The problem is not the affordability, it is a simple power play, stinginess and arrogance of Mclaren/dennis, asking him to make a 1/3 less than button is ridiculous.
Jenson had a 5 year deal for 60million pounds which they renegotiated to up it to 85million for the remaining 3 years. But for hamilton they are asking him to take a pay cut? ridiculous
Maybe they don't want him back and this is their way of pushing him out the door, but like I said, it will have dire consequences for them going down that path.you can't argue with results
15th Sep 12, 19:50 #110
Agree with the rest. Jenson's signed his deal at the end of 2009 if memory serves me. The credit crunch was well underway then so this isn't an affordability thing. As you say it is stinginess. The unfortunate thing for companies that try to squeeze their employees is that a lot of people actually are stupid enough to fall for the "we simply can't afford it line". Maybe those people lack ambition or perhaps they aren't smart enough to actually look at the big picture, and that is that if you're good enough, no matter what the recession, there will always be someone looking for your services and Lewis is definitely good enough. If details of the offer as I described are true he'd be an idiot to stay put at McLaren. If McLaren want loyalty from their drivers and staff, they have to treat them fairly first. But yeah, maybe they want him out and this is his way of pushing him. It will be their loss either way. You can be sure there will be a clause in Hamilton's contract with Mercedes as well that if he doesn't end up in X position in the championship or whatever he can leave. If Mercedes are that confident of delivering, there's no reason why that can't be put in print.
15th Sep 12, 22:26 #111
- Join Date
- Dec 2007
Where do you get those figures from for drivers pay? I understood that when Schumaker was at Ferrari I believe that he was 30 mill,which included all the add on,s from his own sponsorship.But I was also under the impression that there were lots of drivers that were PAY drivers.I also understood that without Pastor,Williams could not afford to compete,as he brings a phenomenal amount of cash to them .
15th Sep 12, 22:58 #112
1. Jenson did have a deal signed in 2009 for 60 million pounds, but towards the end of the 2011 season (at the Indian GP to be precise) they reworked his contract and increased its value to 85million pounds, which was an effective pay raise and brought his salary up to match Hamilton's annual figure for the final 3 years of the contract.
2. Now in the 2012 season, they are looking to Hamilton and asking him to take a 1/3 paycut annualy from what he is currently making for any future contract
3. If times were tough, why increase Button's contract, its not as if he delivered a championship
4. If they were planning on offering Hamilton a 1/3 pay cut anyway, why increase button's contract. Would it not make sense to keep it at the current level and then ask Hamilton to come down to Jenson's rate?
Go figureyou can't argue with results
15th Sep 12, 23:03 #113
1. MSC deal while at Ferrari was in 2006 and the slaries displayed here are for 2012, a simple google search brings up this information, which is the same figure on many websites
2. Even if you are a pay driver, you are drawing a salary. so if Maldonado brings €12 million to the team and gets paid €400k annaully for 3 years then that is probably deducted from the overall package
3. My understanding is that the Santander deal is actually in the neighborhood of €42 million annually of which $30 goes to his salary and some was deferred for the kimi buy out upfront as well
this is my understanding so everyone feel free to correct me if this isn't the caseyou can't argue with results
16th Sep 12, 10:05 #114
Let's get real fellas,
Hamilton was spoiled by being gifted a seat on a top team. No great driver was ever gifted a seat the way Hamilton was, and it went to his head.
Two of the greatest talents in F1 history, Jimmy Clark and Ayrton Senna were not put into the situation Hamilton was. Clark didn't even take a race victory untill 1962, and his first race was halfway through the 1960 season. McLaren is both an asset as well as a liability to him. Will he go to Mercedes, probably not? Would a change of scenery help round him out as a driver, I have very little doubt? Should he leave; not if you live and die with him, harboring the fear that he may get into an inferior car? Personally I dig the Boss, then again I admire most of the drivers. Is he the best of the current field?-- MaybeThose who believe in telekinetics raise my hand.
16th Sep 12, 10:51 #115Those who believe in telekinetics raise my hand.
16th Sep 12, 21:06 #116
- Join Date
- Jun 2003
I've always found the father/son relationship interesting in F1. I don't think its coincidence that the only two sons of F1 drivers to get the WDC both lost their fathers at a young age which had a profound impact on their lives. Those with living F1 fathers seem to find it easier to get into F1 (probably a combo of the right connections, genepool, funding and mentoring) but seem to lack that extra something that gives them the edge to get championships under their belt.
16th Sep 12, 21:14 #117
16th Sep 12, 21:14 #118
- Join Date
- Jun 2003
Modern drivers tend to have been into driving since early childhood while previous drivers often had some kind of other life experience. Many older drivers pursued other professions and many seemed to have become drivers almost by accident. JYS was a shooter and worked at a petrol station, Clarke was a farmer, many others started out as mechanics.
If anything I'm surprised more drivers don't end up like Lewis compared to, say, Vettel who seems more rounded (incidentally I love Vettel's answer to a journalist who asked him whether winning his first WDC was the best thing that happened in his life. Seb answered "you clearly weren't there when I lost my virginity". That is someone who hasn't lost a sense of perspective in life ). They lead such sheltered lives from such a young age that its easy for them to lose all touch with reality in the sense that we know it.
Firstly he is highly inconsistent and his speed is up for debate. He's been roundly outqualified by his teammate this season and he hasn't been able to make a conventional strategy work. Two of his podiums came by using a split strategy from his teammate as a result of qualifying poorly while the other was in changeable wet conditions.
But perhaps more importantly he has apparently shown signs of demonstrating an inflated sense of selfworth at Sauber midseason which has made him difficult to work with. I agree that if he goes quickly to Ferrari this could be exacerbated.
Anyway Ferrari always has the pick of the crop and I don't see why they should go for someone inexperienced and unproven when even the second seat there can attract very serious talent.
16th Sep 12, 21:27 #119
- Join Date
- Jun 2003
I'd forgotten that Jenson had a pay hike.
As for McLaren being stingy, why should they pay a dollar more than they need to? The market dictates how much an employer can get away with paying their employees. In McLaren's case they know there are few racing seats worth of Lewis' talent and that even fewer are available. I bet their offer to Lewis dropped substantially when Webber re-signed for RBR and Lewis got rebuffed by Ferrari because it meant that either he accepted their offer or went to a far less competitive team. Now his choice looks to be exactly that.
If Lewis was negotiating for a contract for 2014 and beyond things would be different because there are more seats open then and it would be more likely that drivers like Webber and Schumacher would definitely call it a day, then the balance would be more in Lewis' favour and McLaren would have to offer more to be guaranteed to keep him.
Also I do find it difficult to pity a driver who gets paid more in one year than most people will ever make in a lifetime.
16th Sep 12, 21:30 #120
- Join Date
- Jun 2003
The truth is that bigger better resourced teams are able to explore more avenues of development than the smaller teams and are therefore more capable of finding quicker solutions when the rules are shaken up. That is why despite several major rules changes over the past two decades we still see the same familiar two at the top, Ferrari and McLaren. RBR has risen thanks to wise management and substantial investment while the opposite happened at Williams to see them drop down.