Thread: Are you allowed to overtake off track now?

Originally Posted by Bagwan

The concept of having a lower grip surface just outside the curbing has some merit , but not clay .

Google 'turfstone'. I think I may have seen it at some tracks, and I think it would be a good 'low grip' solution here. It's like a cross pattern of concrete/brick with grass infill. Slippery enough to deter drivers, but not dangerous like a wall, or race ending like a sand trap might be.

After thoughtful consideration I have come to the opinion that probably any of the top guys not driving for Red Bull would have immediately got on the radio and asked if he should give the place back. I know Button, and The Boss would, the latter has been down that road before. I also feel pretty confident that MW, Kimi, and Alonso would as well. Now Mike.... he might not IMHO There are two reasons I can think of that Vettel did not; a culture of arrogance and entitlement on his side of the paddock (that includes Horner of course) at Red Bull, or simply inexperience in that type of situation on the part of Vettel because Buttons tires were shot out of a mortar off the cliff, and Seb knew it (he even said so). I'm guessing it is a little of both.

Originally Posted by Bezza

If we take the hairpin as a great example, there is absolutely no need for tarmac run-off on the exit of the corner.

I agree with it being there on the entry, so that if a crash happens there is enough grippy run off to stop the car before the wall.

But they should look at corner exits, there is no way you could have a high-speed crash on the exit of the corner, so they should put grass there to slow down any driver that gets the corner wrong.

They then need to adopt this attitude with other corners and other tracks. tarmac run off on corner entry, grass run off on corner exit.

As per normal, put much more eloquently than my post

There is no reason for the runoff there. A length in case someone overshoots the corner but why have it on the exit. Makes no sense.

Damn you Tilke; damn you!! (Shakes fist)

Charly has just come out and said that the penalty for Vettel was harsh at twenty seconds , but that it was the only option available .
Apparently , they are now working on a rewrite of the rules , to allow for some choice for the stewards , on the number of seconds they are penalized for infractions .

This is good news , as any punishment should fit any crime . It's only fair .

And , good news for the forum , too , as there will undoubtedly be some stellar debating here about whether it should have been five , or whether six seconds should have been the minimum penalty for such an aggregious act .

A penalty is a penalty. If you do not want to suffer the penalty - fair or not - don't break the rules.

Originally Posted by SGWilko

A penalty is a penalty. If you do not want to suffer the penalty - fair or not - don't break the rules.

Marko just described it as "capitol punishment for stealing chickens" .

So , it sounds like he knew Sebastian was caught in the henhouse , chicken-handed .

But , he wasn't pleased to hear "Off with his head" .

Formula 1 drivers were warned specifically about increased scrutiny on anyone gaining an advantage by leaving the track, before Sebastian Vettel's controversial move on Jenson Button at the German Grand Prix.

Sebastian Vettel's German Grand Prix penalty came after FIA warning over off-track moves - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

Vettel, Marko et al can have no complaints.

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

Sebastian Vettel's German Grand Prix penalty came after FIA warning over off-track moves - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com

Vettel, Marko et al can have no complaints.

To be fair , they argued that he was pushed off .
So , they complained it wasn't fair to say he did it deliberately .

Now , having appeared to have accepted he should be punished , they are complaining that it is too harsh .
That's something with which Charlie is in agreement .

So , not only complaint , but seemingly justified complaint since the race director agrees .

1) Charlie's instruction, issued at the British GP the week before Germany, says "Any driver leaving the track may rejoin the track but without gaining an advantage." Red Bull cannot complain they were unaware of that instruction.
2) Being aware of that instruction, and having undoubtedly gained a position by "leaving the track" Red Bull should have immediately told Vettel to give the position back to Button avoiding a penalty and so retaining the opportunity in the remaining laps to overtake legitimately. They only have themselves to blame for not doing so, therefore they cannot complain.
3) Having determined that Vettel had made an illegal pass the penalties available to the stewards are fixed in the regulations. Regulations that Red Bull have signed up to. Again, no cause for complaint.

Personally I think a reversal of positions would have been sufficient however as someone who has repeatedly called for consistency when it comes to penalties I have no complaint that the offence was judged and the penalty applied according to the rules. If, as a result of this, the stewards are going to be able to make up their own penalties according to circumstance then consistency will go right out of the window.

Originally Posted by ArrowsFA1

1) Charlie's instruction, issued at the British GP the week before Germany, says "Any driver leaving the track may rejoin the track but without gaining an advantage." Red Bull cannot complain they were unaware of that instruction.
2) Being aware of that instruction, and having undoubtedly gained a position by "leaving the track" Red Bull should have immediately told Vettel to give the position back to Button avoiding a penalty and so retaining the opportunity in the remaining laps to overtake legitimately. They only have themselves to blame for not doing so, therefore they cannot complain.
3) Having determined that Vettel had made an illegal pass the penalties available to the stewards are fixed in the regulations. Regulations that Red Bull have signed up to. Again, no cause for complaint.

Personally I think a reversal of positions would have been sufficient however as someone who has repeatedly called for consistency when it comes to penalties I have no complaint that the offence was judged and the penalty applied according to the rules. If, as a result of this, the stewards are going to be able to make up their own penalties according to circumstance then consistency will go right out of the window.

I don't disagree with any of this, but can anyone really say that these rules and endless opportunities for the meting-out of penalties improve the sport?

Originally Posted by Knock-on

There is no reason for the runoff there. A length in case someone overshoots the corner but why have it on the exit. Makes no sense.

Isn't it historical? Isn't it where the track used to return from the woods and back into the stadium section back in the old days? They just tarmaced over the whole area I think instead of sculpting out gravel traps.

Agree with the above posts saying that if you give drivers the option of a run-off area that doesn't slow you down they'll just exploit it. Merely penalising the odd trespasser afterwards is ineffective. A stepped kerb at the edge of the track that makes excursions both painful and potentially damaging to the car would do the trick.

Originally Posted by BDunnell

I don't disagree with any of this, but can anyone really say that these rules and endless opportunities for the meting-out of penalties improve the sport?

Not in my view. I think there are already too many rules, particularly where driver behaviour is concerned.

Vettel and "Dr Marko" have a history now of being utter complete whingebags. I'd argue Marko is even worse than Vettel! And they seem completely unable to hold themselves responsible of an accident.

It is so blatantly clear that Vettel drove purposely off track to gain the position, that Red Bull and Vettel should be in disrepute for even protesting their innocence over it.

Christian Horner's interview on Sky was cringeworthy. He squirmed and shuffled and said "well, as you can see on the video - Jenson ran wide and Vettel had no choice but to go over the kerb - Jenson did it as well!!!!" - yet, the video showed Jenson barely touched the kerb until Vettel was powering ahead of him! Vettel said the same "I didn't see where he was". Your bloody in-car camera shows Button is right there, are you blind?! If you couldn't see him, you shouldn't be allowed to drive in F1! It was clear that they had choreographed their answers.

Vettel then lied on the podium interview, saying Button hadn't said anything, when we all heard him have a go on live TV five minutes earlier.

This is why I can't stand Red Bull at the moment, apart from Mark Webber, who is good honest racer. I am really hoping the title comes to a showdown between Alonso and Webber.

Doesn't surprise me that on Google when you search for "Helmut Marko" - the first predicted response is "Helmut Marko Idiot"

If you are forced off track when attemping an overtake it´s allowed.

Originally Posted by Mia 01

If you are forced off track when attemping an overtake it´s allowed.

20) DRIVING
20.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.
20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the
track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the
track.
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.
20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving
back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least
one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the
edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.

FIA Sporting Regulations (pdf)

Originally Posted by Malbec

A stepped kerb at the edge of the track that makes excursions both painful and potentially damaging to the car would do the trick.

Anything that has the potential to launch an out of control car should be avoided. Slap offenders with endless penalties until they learn the hard way.

Originally Posted by Mia 01

If you are forced off track when attemping an overtake it´s allowed.

No, the clarification was made after Nico R tried that one twice in one race......