23rd Jul 12, 20:18 #81
23rd Jul 12, 21:26 #82
23rd Jul 12, 21:38 #83
After thoughtful consideration I have come to the opinion that probably any of the top guys not driving for Red Bull would have immediately got on the radio and asked if he should give the place back. I know Button, and The Boss would, the latter has been down that road before. I also feel pretty confident that MW, Kimi, and Alonso would as well. Now Mike.... he might not IMHO There are two reasons I can think of that Vettel did not; a culture of arrogance and entitlement on his side of the paddock (that includes Horner of course) at Red Bull, or simply inexperience in that type of situation on the part of Vettel because Buttons tires were shot out of a mortar off the cliff, and Seb knew it (he even said so). I'm guessing it is a little of both.Those who believe in telekinetics raise my hand.
24th Jul 12, 00:14 #84
24th Jul 12, 01:55 #85
24th Jul 12, 12:20 #86
Charly has just come out and said that the penalty for Vettel was harsh at twenty seconds , but that it was the only option available .
Apparently , they are now working on a rewrite of the rules , to allow for some choice for the stewards , on the number of seconds they are penalized for infractions .
This is good news , as any punishment should fit any crime . It's only fair .
And , good news for the forum , too , as there will undoubtedly be some stellar debating here about whether it should have been five , or whether six seconds should have been the minimum penalty for such an aggregious act ."No pen , no pen ." -what Sato said to me .
24th Jul 12, 12:24 #87
A penalty is a penalty. If you do not want to suffer the penalty - fair or not - don't break the rules.Opinions are like ar5eholes, everyone has one.
24th Jul 12, 12:41 #88
24th Jul 12, 12:52 #89Formula 1 drivers were warned specifically about increased scrutiny on anyone gaining an advantage by leaving the track, before Sebastian Vettel's controversial move on Jenson Button at the German Grand Prix.
Vettel, Marko et al can have no complaints.
24th Jul 12, 13:32 #90
So , they complained it wasn't fair to say he did it deliberately .
Now , having appeared to have accepted he should be punished , they are complaining that it is too harsh .
That's something with which Charlie is in agreement .
So , not only complaint , but seemingly justified complaint since the race director agrees ."No pen , no pen ." -what Sato said to me .
24th Jul 12, 13:59 #91
1) Charlie's instruction, issued at the British GP the week before Germany, says "Any driver leaving the track may rejoin the track but without gaining an advantage." Red Bull cannot complain they were unaware of that instruction.
2) Being aware of that instruction, and having undoubtedly gained a position by "leaving the track" Red Bull should have immediately told Vettel to give the position back to Button avoiding a penalty and so retaining the opportunity in the remaining laps to overtake legitimately. They only have themselves to blame for not doing so, therefore they cannot complain.
3) Having determined that Vettel had made an illegal pass the penalties available to the stewards are fixed in the regulations. Regulations that Red Bull have signed up to. Again, no cause for complaint.
Personally I think a reversal of positions would have been sufficient however as someone who has repeatedly called for consistency when it comes to penalties I have no complaint that the offence was judged and the penalty applied according to the rules. If, as a result of this, the stewards are going to be able to make up their own penalties according to circumstance then consistency will go right out of the window.
24th Jul 12, 15:05 #92
24th Jul 12, 15:34 #93
- Join Date
- Jun 2003
Agree with the above posts saying that if you give drivers the option of a run-off area that doesn't slow you down they'll just exploit it. Merely penalising the odd trespasser afterwards is ineffective. A stepped kerb at the edge of the track that makes excursions both painful and potentially damaging to the car would do the trick.
24th Jul 12, 15:35 #94
25th Jul 12, 08:41 #95
Vettel and "Dr Marko" have a history now of being utter complete whingebags. I'd argue Marko is even worse than Vettel! And they seem completely unable to hold themselves responsible of an accident.
It is so blatantly clear that Vettel drove purposely off track to gain the position, that Red Bull and Vettel should be in disrepute for even protesting their innocence over it.
Christian Horner's interview on Sky was cringeworthy. He squirmed and shuffled and said "well, as you can see on the video - Jenson ran wide and Vettel had no choice but to go over the kerb - Jenson did it as well!!!!" - yet, the video showed Jenson barely touched the kerb until Vettel was powering ahead of him! Vettel said the same "I didn't see where he was". Your bloody in-car camera shows Button is right there, are you blind?! If you couldn't see him, you shouldn't be allowed to drive in F1! It was clear that they had choreographed their answers.
Vettel then lied on the podium interview, saying Button hadn't said anything, when we all heard him have a go on live TV five minutes earlier.
This is why I can't stand Red Bull at the moment, apart from Mark Webber, who is good honest racer. I am really hoping the title comes to a showdown between Alonso and Webber.Niente č vero, tutto č permesso
25th Jul 12, 08:44 #96
Doesn't surprise me that on Google when you search for "Helmut Marko" - the first predicted response is "Helmut Marko Idiot"Niente č vero, tutto č permesso
25th Jul 12, 10:20 #97
If you are forced off track when attemping an overtake itīs allowed.
25th Jul 12, 10:39 #9820) DRIVING
20.1 The driver must drive the car alone and unaided.
20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the
track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the
Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is
safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.
A driver may not deliberately leave the track without justifiable reason.
20.3 More than one change of direction to defend a position is not permitted. Any driver moving
back towards the racing line, having earlier defended his position off‐line, should leave at least
one car width between his own car and the edge of the track on the approach to the corner.
20.4 Manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers, such as deliberate crowding of a car beyond the
edge of the track or any other abnormal change of direction, are not permitted.
25th Jul 12, 10:48 #99
25th Jul 12, 10:49 #100