Are you allowed to overtake off track now?

**AndyL** · 22nd Jul 12, 18:49

Originally Posted by Bagwan

Thank-you , Mr. Donkey .
It looks like it may have been judged that the moment he started to leave the track , rather than the last moment , that might have been in the reasoning for the decision .

I'd be looking more at the second picture I think, before Vettel left the track. At that point he'd already run too deep in the corner; he had the option to keep the wheel turned, delay hitting the throttle and complete the turn inside the white line. But he chose to straighten up so he could nail the throttle early, which was inevitably going to take him off track.

**markabilly** · 22nd Jul 12, 19:02

i watched the Q3, and correct me, if i be wrong, but it seemed that Alonso was using a lot of off-track to get the pole position.

Problem was that the TV folks were jumping from car to car, so I could not tell exactly when he was going wide, but it seemed like he was almost always doing it through the qualifying for the pole.....Now I ain't accussing and wanting to make donKey jump up and down on his old lady, but I am just saying......

**N4D13** · 22nd Jul 12, 19:06

Originally Posted by markabilly

i watched the Q3, and correct me, if i be wrong, but it seemed that Alonso was using a lot of off-track to get the pole position.

Problem was that the TV folks were jumping from car to car, so I could not tell exactly when he was going wide, but it seemed like he was almost always doing it through the qualifying for the pole.....Now I ain't accussing and wanting to make donKey jump up and down on his old lady, but I am just saying......

I'd need to watch a replay, but I don't think it's that uncommon. I guess several drivers must have done the same, as the normal racing line would probably have less grip than the rest of the track.

**BDunnell** · 22nd Jul 12, 19:14

This whole business is utterly absurd. If the bit of track is there, drivers should be allowed to use it. If you don't want them to drive there, put a wall up. End of story, surely?

**Dave B** · 22nd Jul 12, 19:50

Originally Posted by BDunnell

This whole business is utterly absurd. If the bit of track is there, drivers should be allowed to use it. If you don't want them to drive there, put a wall up. End of story, surely?

It's not a bit of track, though, it's a bit of run-off. The track is defined by the white lines, and the rules clearly state that if all 4 wheels leave the track and you gain an advantage then you should attract a penalty.

**Dave B** · 22nd Jul 12, 19:57

Just for clarity:

20.2 Drivers must use the track at all times. For the avoidance of doubt the white lines defining the track edges are considered to be part of the track but the kerbs are not.
A driver will be judged to have left the track if no part of the car remains in contact with the track.

Should a car leave the track the driver may rejoin, however, this may only be done when it is safe to do so and without gaining any advantage.

Source: Formula 1

**ArrowsFA1** · 22nd Jul 12, 20:11

Originally Posted by Dave B

Just for clarity...

Crystal clear

**jens** · 22nd Jul 12, 20:41

Originally Posted by Dave B

It's not a bit of track, though, it's a bit of run-off. The track is defined by the white lines, and the rules clearly state that if all 4 wheels leave the track and you gain an advantage then you should attract a penalty.

I think the point was that if this is a run-off area, it should really be a practically distracting place, not something that looks like genuine piece of track and drivers can gain time there instead of being on the "real track".

Throughout the years I have personally got the impression that going off the track at that part of the Hockenheim circuit after the hairpin during battles is so normal that it even surprised me they have started penalizing this.

**steveaki13** · 22nd Jul 12, 20:45

Originally Posted by donKey jote

let the discussion begin

I think the simple answer is that once he ran wide in the last picture, he just needed to tuck in behind. Then pass him later, which he surely would have.

Instead he just floored it and passed him.

**markabilly** · 22nd Jul 12, 20:47

Originally Posted by BDunnell

This whole business is utterly absurd. If the bit of track is there, drivers should be allowed to use it. If you don't want them to drive there, put a wall up. End of story, surely?

or this:

Walls are bit confining, so I go with the spikes.

For sure, a result in a mandatory pit stop.

Plus I think may be there should be a similar penalty for pushing the other driver off track............

**BDunnell** · 22nd Jul 12, 20:50

Originally Posted by jens

I think the point was that if this is a run-off area, it should really be a practically distracting place, not something that looks like genuine piece of track and drivers can gain time there instead of being on the "real track".

Exactly.

**steveaki13** · 22nd Jul 12, 20:53

Originally Posted by jens

I think the point was that if this is a run-off area, it should really be a practically distracting place, not something that looks like genuine piece of track and drivers can gain time there instead of being on the "real track".

Throughout the years I have personally got the impression that going off the track at that part of the Hockenheim circuit after the hairpin during battles is so normal that it even surprised me they have started penalizing this.

They clearly could do something about this.

The tarmac is there on the way into the hairpin because if a car goes off it is safer to brake and slow down on tarmac. Which is fine.

However on the exit they need to put grass or gravel in, as there is no danger of injury. It means there is no chance of gaining an advantage.

That would be my solution anyway

**BDunnell** · 22nd Jul 12, 20:59

Originally Posted by henners88

If the run off area looks like a pice of 'real track', why is it heavy painted with Santander logo's which are not normally painted on any other track surface? Its there for drivers to run wide if they miss their braking or are forced wide, they can't use it to gain better traction and cut out part of the track to get past another driver though.

Why, in that case, make it somewhere a driver would want to go in order to gain an advantage?

**markabilly** · 22nd Jul 12, 21:03

I do not know why they do not add something extra at the end, such as a slow down, twist and turn, so anyone who uses it, will automatically lose time

**driveace** · 22nd Jul 12, 21:48

Correct decision by the stewards ,it was a planned overtake,and a bull**** excuse.Why does Red bull feel it can break rules all the time ? Engine mapping,holes in under floors,overtaking off track! Red bull are being made to look like cheaters by Horner and his team.

**odykas** · 22nd Jul 12, 22:24

I guess Vettel will blame cucumbers again

Great move by Lewis!

**CNR** · 22nd Jul 12, 22:34

looking at the images button is running him off the track is this also allowed ?

**wedge** · 22nd Jul 12, 22:46

Right decision by the stewards but a harsh penalty, IMO. Should have dropped backed to third.

This is surely one of things Derek Warwick needs looking at with the FIA.

Originally Posted by theugsquirrel

32 seconds in. If it's around the outside the stewards don't care.

To be fair both were in dogfight and racing very hard: both went off at various points of the battle.

Originally Posted by truefan72

just remembered that Alonso got a penalty for passing Kubica off track in Silverstone 2 years ago

so what is the hold up with the stewards?

That was mid-race.

The incident today came at the end of the race and ran out of time to evaluate thoroughly and thus with post race and the penalties available.

Originally Posted by henners88

Kimi used the run off at Spa for similar reasons a few years back and the FIA made it very clear you can't gain an advantage from using the grippy run off areas. All drivers are aware of this and I'm sure it would have been discussed in the Friday briefing too.

That was at the start. If he had yielded he most probably cause a chain reaction behind him.

Originally Posted by BDunnell

Why, in that case, make it somewhere a driver would want to go in order to gain an advantage?

Asphalt run off is needed but sensibly revised. What is the likelihood of a high speed accident on the exit of hairpin?

**N4D13** · 22nd Jul 12, 22:51

Originally Posted by wedge

Asphalt run off is needed but sensibly revised. What is the likelihood of a high speed accident on the exit of hairpin?

It wouldn't be a high-speed impact, but it's not difficult to imagine a driver spinning as he goes out of the hairpin, then getting T-boned by someone behind him.

**Zico** · 22nd Jul 12, 23:08

Originally Posted by CNR

looking at the images button is running him off the track is this also allowed ?

Vettel had clearly decided he was going to use the run-off as part of the race track even before Jenson (would have) forced him to abandon the move and pull in behind by crowding him out... isn't that the way it is and understood by all the drivers? Jenson did nothing wrong in my book.