Thread: Did Pirelli go too far?

Originally Posted by wedge

I think that answer says it all.

If F1boat can claim McLaren has been superior to RBR, and I claim the opposite, why don't you ask from both of us to prove our cases?

Certainly McLaren's race pace does not match its performance single lap. Conversely it appears/ed to be the opposite for RBR.

RBR was faster on single lap than McLaren at Monaco for example. But in racepace there is no question, Red Bull was faster in Malaysia, Shanghai, Bahrain, Monaco and even Barcelona.

Originally Posted by Garry Walker

If F1boat can claim McLaren has been superior to RBR, and I claim the opposite, why don't you ask from both of us to prove our cases?

RBR was faster on single lap than McLaren at Monaco for example. But in racepace there is no question, Red Bull was faster in Malaysia, Shanghai, Bahrain, Monaco and even Barcelona.

First, I don't mind both but its bests to explain your point than throwing toys out the pram.

To some extent I agree with both Garry & F1boat.

Being supposedly quick is one thing, extracting the car's performance and translating it into results is another.

For me it is puzzling that Garry considered Red Bull to be faster than McLaren in any race, except Bahrain and Monaco. Over the whole race weekend they have been easily better than them in all but these two races. The problems with the pits and strategy are another matter to them. But then again Garry considers Vettel to be considerably weaker than Button and Hamilton, a view which I do not share at all. So this explains the huge differences in our assertions of the current pecking order in F1.

Garry is correct IMHO that the Red Bull has been consistently better in both Q and the Race over McLaren. They also have managed the tyre situation better and made their strategy work better s well.

McLaren are struggleing with the constantly changing tyres. This is not Pirelli's fault s they have produced a tyre that they were asked to do. McLaren's problem is that the tyre erformance is so dynamic that they just haven't been able to predict them accurately. What they think is happening is not being bourne out with times and endurance. A degree change in temp is changing the whole characteristic and performance.

I'm not making excuses for McLaren and not criticising Pirelli for doing what was asked but possibly the FIA needs to ask them to reign it in a bit. The teams need some degree of predictability IMHO although I think the tyres are not far away from where they need to be and ultimately it's McLarens job to use the tools it has to the best of their ability.

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Garry is correct IMHO that the Red Bull has been consistently better in both Q and the Race over McLaren. They also have managed the tyre situation better and made their strategy work better s well.

Australia - McLaren beat RBR in quali. Near equal in race, Button drove the perfect race, Hamilton harder on his tyres.

Malaysia - Hamilton wears his tyres out more.

China - RBR brought new aero/sidepod package that flummoxed Vettel. Strong race pace so whatever potential the car has the results don't show it.

Bahrain - RBR hands down the better car.

Spain - Provisional pole and 2 stop race suggests Hamilton had the car to beat. RBR had front wing problems on race day for both drivers.

Monaco - RBR better car.

RBR arguably the better package but the results don't necessarily show it. As I said earlier, having the quickest car is one thing, extracting and getting results is another. History show you that the quickest cars aren't necessarily WDC winners.

Originally Posted by N4D13

Here's something I wanted to share with you.

In the first three races of 2012, from what we've seen so far, it looks like having the fastest car isn't enough to win. It looks like rather than being outright fast, the most important thing seems to be getting the tyres to work, and a small change in temperature can have huge consequences on a car's handling and performance. Is this really what the sport should be about, and is it what we'd like to see? Personally, I'm a bit disappointed to see how these three first races have become sort of a lottery in which the car which can get its tyres into the optimal temperature window will win, even if it's not really fast. This was specially obvious in the Malaysian GP, with Ferrari and Sauber going faster just because they made the tyres work better on wet conditions, yet were basically nowhere in China. I wonder if, in Pirelli's intentions to make the championship more exciting, they went a step too far and made tyres which were simply unpredictable.

Of course, time will tell whether the teams will get on top of the tyres or not, but what we've seen so far from the 2012 Pirellis is a bit absurd, isn't it?

Well, I think this is a good time to bring this thread back up and also to enjoy a BIG slice of humble pie.

Oh, and congratulations to Pirelli for making the Valencia race entertaining. If even this race was something one could watch without feeling the need to take a nap, it must be that the tyre guys have made a helluva job.

Originally Posted by N4D13

Well, I think this is a good time to bring this thread back up and also to enjoy a BIG slice of humble pie.

Oh, and congratulations to Pirelli for making the Valencia race entertaining. If even this race was something one could watch without feeling the need to take a nap, it must be that the tyre guys have made a helluva job.

Respect for that.

Did anyone watch the 2002 season? I can quickly decide which season I prefer out of 2002 and 2012.

Originally Posted by N4D13

Well, I think this is a good time to bring this thread back up and also to enjoy a BIG slice of humble pie.

Oh, and congratulations to Pirelli for making the Valencia race entertaining. If even this race was something one could watch without feeling the need to take a nap, it must be that the tyre guys have made a helluva job.

Overblown reaction considering it was a race filled with incidents and drama.

It's only Valencia.

Certainly won't be missed when its taken off the calendar.

Originally Posted by wedge

Overblown reaction considering it was a race filled with incidents and drama.

It's only Valencia.

Certainly won't be missed when its taken off the calendar.

I know, I know, but still, how many overtakes did we see during the race? And they weren't due to DRS - it was mostly the tyres. This is Valencia we're talking about, after all. It's given us the dullest races over the last few years, so this has been a welcome change.

Oh, and one more thing - yes, there have been lots of incidents and stuff, but still, how much of the drama was caused -at least, partly- by the tyres? I don't think we would have seen the Maldonado-Hamilton crash or that we would have been so worried by overtakes after the SC if it hadn't been because of the tyres.

It is interesting how there are two dimensions to the 2012 Pirelli's;

Thermal deg and abrasion deg. A car that heats the tyres well was suffering thermal deg in Valencia, but not in Canada, where the main reason for degradation was due to lack of traction taking life out the tyre.

This clearly explains the see-saw between races.

Originally Posted by N4D13

I know, I know, but still, how many overtakes did we see during the race

way too few, thanks to the donkey coverage

ahh, cheers slowson
Amazing Alonso !

Originally Posted by SGWilko

It is interesting how there are two dimensions to the 2012 Pirelli's;

Thermal deg and abrasion deg. A car that heats the tyres well was suffering thermal deg in Valencia, but not in Canada, where the main reason for degradation was due to lack of traction taking life out the tyre.

This clearly explains the see-saw between races.

Not really.

Seriously, this time!

The latter was exaggerated by tyre strategy.

Circuits regarded as low deg we've seen team going for/gambling on 1 stops as in Monaco & Canada.

It used to be the case the one could a good/reasonable prediction based on circuit type but it doesn't seem so this year. Lewis didn't have a race winning car in Monaco but was in Canada.

I think it is much, much more complex.

For instance:

The closeness of the competition. The banning of EBD's equalised the field so perhaps aero revisions/updates affects the downforce produced and consequently affects tyres

It seems that some cars have a favoured temperature range. RBR and Lotus seem to like warm temperatures and perhaps, therefore temperature sensitive such as temperature fluctuations over a race weekend. After the Spanish GP Alan Permaine of Lotus/Renault said his cars lost performance as the temperature dropped during the weekend.

the best fix would be if each team lent them 1 car from last year to test with
Pirelli unhappy with 2010 test car solution

The notoriously-small operating ‘window’ of this year’s Pirelli tyres could have been avoided, with the help of the competing formula one teams. That is the claim of the Italian marque’s F1 chief Paul Hembery, who said the sport’s official supplier did not foresee the full characteristics of the 2012 tyre.
“The same tyres used on a 2010 car do not have the same level of challenge,” the Briton is quoted by Brazil’s Totalrace.

Pirelli says Spa tyre selection should allow drivers to push - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com
Pirelli to go hard and medium for Spa to allow drivers to push.
Sounds good

Originally Posted by wedge

Overblown reaction considering it was a race filled with incidents and drama.

It's only Valencia.

Certainly won't be missed when its taken off the calendar.

Not as long as Alonso keeps winning races and championships!

Originally Posted by Knock-on

Pirelli says Spa tyre selection should allow drivers to push - F1 news - AUTOSPORT.com
Pirelli to go hard and medium for Spa to allow drivers to push.
Sounds good

Where's Ioan?

The cynic in me says the response is PR BS to cover themselves after the furore last year with blistering and camber.

However, its the logical tyre choices. There's been some funny tyre allocations this year but they didn't go aggressive in Hungary it showed that is possible to manage the tyres and the ability to push hard when needs must.