Thread: R2 Cars

C2 max is the best r2 car at the moment in my opinion (probably until 208 will be available). it has good BOS suspension, a lot of upgrades, very reliable after many years of competing and is most powerful, maybe a little bit nervous at high speeds...
fiesta is very nice to drive, has great reiger suspension (which works very well even with just 2 adjustments in the rear dampers), but lacks a lot of power comparing to c2 max. also to make it competitive you have to invest in a lot of Msport upgrades. also different is that you're not buying complete caged bodyshell from msport, but just a rollcage that has to be fitted by authorised company into donor car, options for 3door and 5door available. also conversion from tarmac/gravel is not difficult, as just few parts are different, for example not complete brakes are different but you use same caliper just with or without special adapters.
twingo I have only experience with first verision, not evo. it was very nice car, with a lot better traction than c2, but at that time lacking a lot of power comparing to c2 max.
fabia I have not a lot of experience, it's private build car, just homologated by factory and because of smaller team preparing the cars/parts it's not so popular. also quite expensive I've heard, but I'm not sure about it.
208 looks to be really great car, but honestly we have to wait till November for the first cars available for the private customers to be able to say more.
you need any more info please lt me know, we were taking care of few c2 and fiesta rally cars, now we are looking forward for 208...

In july normally the 208 R2 will have its first official competition, in Ireland(Ulster Rally)
Remains to be seen who will drive the car though

Originally Posted by Tom206wrc

In july normally the 208 R2 will have its first official competition, in Ireland(Ulster Rally)
Remains to be seen who will drive the car though

Yep, I know, but normally to see true potential of the car, true behaviour, problems, etc. you have to see the car in private team hands...

The guy in question is mostly interested in trying out a C2 Max, but is unsure on behavior on that one on gravel and snow compared with a Fiesta or Twingo Evo.
He likes a neutral set up, maybe with a bit of oversteer out of the corners, and finds the older Clio N3 hard to set up to his liking.

Have your team Br21 any experience on gravel with the C2, and are they easy to set up not to be too nervous on the loose surface?

with Twingo (especially "evo") I have no experience on gravel, I just attend some early test of it on tarmac and there the grip and traction was really impressive, better than c2.
In my opinion c2 wil always be more nervous than fiesta, just because the dimensions of the car (~30cms shorter in total, 16cms shorter wheelbase, etc.) but good driver can set it up really well with BOS dampers and knowing some "special behaviour" of this car can drive really fast. Fiesta will be much smoother, with little bit more oversteer, giving the driver split second more for reaction, but also way less powerfull so on the fast stages you've got in scandinavia it could be an important factor... fiesta is better while jumping I also think, it lands better, rear suspension absorbs it better...
also the fiesta is cheaper to run...

Thanks for good answers br21!

I have tried to put togeter a spreadsheet on hard tech facts found online for all R2s. Have tried to find the front and rear track width on the Fiesta, but have not been able to find it yet. Do anyone know those measures?

Originally Posted by br21

with Twingo (especially "evo") I have no experience on gravel, I just attend some early test of it on tarmac and there the grip and traction was really impressive, better than c2.
In my opinion c2 wil always be more nervous than fiesta, just because the dimensions of the car (~30cms shorter in total, 16cms shorter wheelbase, etc.) but good driver can set it up really well with BOS dampers and knowing some "special behaviour" of this car can drive really fast. Fiesta will be much smoother, with little bit more oversteer, giving the driver split second more for reaction, but also way less powerfull so on the fast stages you've got in scandinavia it could be an important factor... fiesta is better while jumping I also think, it lands better, rear suspension absorbs it better...
also the fiesta is cheaper to run...

I agree with these comments. Of course it's good to have more power than the opposition, but it doesn't guarantee faster stage times even in Scandinavia. In Finland both the C2 and Fiesta have been equally fast. For example Jukka Korhonen was the fastest R2 driver this weekend in Lapua and the special stages sometimes looked more like an airstrip than a special stage. Here is a link for in-car footage POPPankki SM-Ralli Lapua 2012, Jukka Korhonen SS1 - YouTube

The most important factors to get speed out of R2s is to have a good setup and really put some thought (and practice time) on good pace notes.

Mapping the Fiesta for E85, what doesmthat do for the HP/NM ?

My good friend has driven both the C2 R2 Max and the Fiesta and we have talked about this subject a lot. His experiences are more or less the same as br21 stated. The Fiesta has much better handling and better suspension (Reiger) than C2. It is cheaper to maintain and rent. C2 is sometimes unstable on high speeds and more unstable under heavy braking. However, the almost 30 HP power advantage for the Citroen means that in most cases, with the same driver, the C2 will be a faster car. All these infos are based on asphalt experience

Originally Posted by Sulland

Mapping the Fiesta for E85, what doesmthat do for the HP/NM ?

Speaking just theoretically (no own experience).

With E85 You can use richer fuel mixture because E85 contains quite a lot of oxygen. You can also use higher compression ratio because of high octane number of E85 but that means You need to modify cylinder head. Properly set engine for E85 shall be more powerful, especially in torque but it also must have much higher fuel consumption which can be a problem with really long sections between refueling.

Originally Posted by Sulland

Mapping the Fiesta for E85, what doesmthat do for the HP/NM ?

I'm not sure if it's possible, I mean according to the rules. I'm big fan of E85 fuel, but to use E85 with succes you may need bigger injectors and different CR, so little bit different engine head finishing or head gasket, etc (or maybe injectors are good enought, I don't know). Exactly as Mirek said. In R2 class you're normally getting map for ECU from manufacturer, you can choose for which fuel you want the car to be mapped, but I think there is no E85 available as it's way less popular in France (C2, Twingo) & UK (Fiesta) than in Scandinavia.

Thanks all of you!

The c2´s and fiesta´s you have been driving, are they with standard setup on dampers? "factory shimming"?

Now the driver joined the forum, jensee so he can ask directly - welcome !

No one that knows the front and rear track width on the Fiesta ?

The track must be the same or near compared to the standard Fiesta. The Fiesta kit doesn’t include the front lower arms and also the rear beam is standard. On the other hand the wheel hubs are not standard and I think those can change the track a bit.

But you can send an inquiry to M-Sport (http://www.m-sport.co.uk/index.php/contac). I believe they will answer.

Juuso Pykälistö has tested the both cars for Vauhdin Maailma and he also said the Fiesta had a better balance and better suspension compared to the Citroen. He also said the Fiesta doesn’t tilt as much as the Citroen due to better balance. Also in his account to find suspension setup that he liked it would need about 50 km of driving with the Fiesta but about 200 km with the Citroen C2. He said that the Citroen’s suspension felt like made for more rough gravel roads.

The Fiesta has a connector in the engine compartment and when connecting a “green” flash drive to the connector, it will change the engine mapping to suite E85.

There was conflicting information in the article regarding power with gasoline and E85. In the text section was written that the power is 170 ps with gasoline and 179 ps with E85. In the data box the power and torque was:

Gasoline: 171 ps (126 kW) @ 7000 rpm / 190Nm @ 5790 rpm
E85: 174 ps (128 kW) @ 6860 rpm / 190 Nm @ 5290 rpm

Originally Posted by OldF

The Fiesta has a connector in the engine compartment and when connecting a “green” flash drive to the connector, it will change the engine mapping to suite E85.

I didn't know about that option, very interesting!

How is the handeling and drivability on the Fabia vs Fiesta and Twingo?

Jan Černý told me that suspension of Fabia didn't work good.

OldF: Some time a go I saw a dyno chart of Fiesta and the result was same like You said - 171 Hp but I don't remember any more details. Fabia engine output is around 190 Hp at best.

Citroen Sport has developed a R1 DS3. Is it logic to assume they in 2012/13 will upgrade their R2 rallycar from the older C2 to the newer DS3 chassis?

No more cheap rallying.