Thread: Is There a God?

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

One must not forget that until relatively recently if one dared criticise religion they would end up being burned at the stake.

This explains why I don't have issues with my religion. Because such punishments never occured.

Orthodox priests had their way also to punish people, even in recent times.
No mater which religion they have none of them are angels.

Originally Posted by ioan

Orthodox priests had their way also to punish people, even in recent times.

Such as....?

Originally Posted by ioan

No mater which religion they have none of them are angels.

Of course not. They're still humans.

Yes, but there is other examples, in my country, while the commies took power, they were really intolerant to religious people and killed many priests, because they (the commies) were hardcore atheists. So atheism could be very intolerant as well.

Originally Posted by F1boat

Yes, but there is other examples, in my country, while the commies took power, they were really intolerant to religious people and killed many priests, because they (the commies) were hardcore atheists. So atheism could be very intolerant as well.

They killed the priests because the Commies were atheists?

Or because the Church was and is an integral part of the capitalists system and a major part ---with their pretty stories about obedience to authority and a wonderful AFTERlife---of how the whole system was perpetuated?

Cause you know that Revolutions of all sorts usually want to topple the existing power structure, and the Church 000or something calling itself "the church" is usually part of the power structure..

The French Revolution wasn't too nice to the Church, the Mexican Revolution of 18 whatever stripped the church of its wealth which was overwhelmingly the biggest collective wealth in the country by mega factors, ....

Half of my country is sick and tired past their eyebrows of whore-politicians listening to so called "Christian Conservatives" who are relentless in trying to force their vision of a Taliban-like theocracy on the rest of us.

Pretty understandable why the commies would have animosity.

"You cannot serve two masters" some guy once said..

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Such as....?

There was this exorcism case not long ago in Romania, pretty nasty one and not the only one either.

Originally Posted by F1boat

Yes, but there is other examples, in my country, while the commies took power, they were really intolerant to religious people and killed many priests, because they (the commies) were hardcore atheists. So atheism could be very intolerant as well.

Funny how that didn't really happened in Romania.
In fact in Romania most priests became informers of the Secret Police (Securitate) and sent many people to sure death.
Maybe your priests had a spine and didn't want to become informers, though I somehow doubt it.

Originally Posted by F1boat

Yes, but there is other examples, in my country, while the commies took power, they were really intolerant to religious people and killed many priests, because they (the commies) were hardcore atheists. So atheism could be very intolerant as well.

They weren't intolerant because they were atheist. They were intolerant because they were communist.

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

They weren't intolerant because they were atheist. They were intolerant because they were communist.

Might be true. Most of people joined the Communist Party from opportunism and not because they believed in the „cause”. At least in my country communism was imposed not wanted. Many of them continued to follow the religious traditions avoiding to be seen in a church ( example: they wanted to baptize their children, it wasn’t legally forbidden but their presence in the church could add a black page in their „file”, so they called the priest at home and did the service in the bathroom using the bathtub as a font ).
However communists can be blamed for horrible crimes, priests can't. And it's fair to say that simply following a rite doesn't make you a good christian.

Originally Posted by Ioan

Funny how that didn't really happened in Romania.
In fact in Romania most priests became informers of the Secret Police (Securitate) and sent many people to sure death.
Maybe your priests had a spine and didn't want to become informers, though I somehow doubt it.

It’s with regret that I have (again!) to say you’re completely lost from the realities of your country. History is based on documents and not on what you listern at a queue in Matache market.

It’s a fact that there were informers among priests – this phenomenon occured esp in the last years of communism and I don’t think they did a lot of harm. The anticommunist feeling was quasi general in that period. Even “Secu” closed their eyes and only add “facts” at our files. And informers were among all of us, doctors, teachers, scientists, artists, writers or simply workers or peasants.
It’s also a fact (but you seem to ignore it, hopefully you do it from lack of knowledge ) that in the stalinist period ( the one when you risked to be sent in jail or channel for a simple joke and when most of the horrible communist crimes had happened in communist camps) many priests were those who supported the resistance fight against communism, many of them were sent to jail –sometimes for the only fault that they believe in God-, and even in jail they helped the other political prisoners to keep their dignity.

BTW, Ioane, have you ever heared of father Dumitru Staniloae?

Originally Posted by ioan

Funny how that didn't really happened in Romania.
In fact in Romania most priests became informers of the Secret Police (Securitate) and sent many people to sure death.
Maybe your priests had a spine and didn't want to become informers, though I somehow doubt it.

They changed them. In the 40s they killed the noble and good priests, Orthodox and Catholic and really tried to enforce the atheist point of view. And they were atheists, you know, it was part of their ideology and there were ridiculous opinions such as plane pilots saying that they went to the sky and found no God. Once they realized that they can not destroy religion, they infiltrated it. So yes, in Bulgaria, from the 50s, I think, many priests were State Security lapdogs. But it wasn't like that in the beginning. Many churches were destroyed and priests killed and the mantra was "religion is opium for the masses". But in the beginning the commies were internationalists and later they became nationalistic.

Originally Posted by ioan

There was this exorcism case not long ago in Romania, pretty nasty one and not the only one either.

I was expecting this answer about Tanacu case. Wonder what else could you say...
Esp. that 2 weeks ago Cristian Mungiu's movie "Beyond hills" based on this case trimphed at Cannes film festival.

What happened at Tanacu is an isolated case and every community has its fools. For those who don't know what we're talking about: a nun was killed by a priest and 4 other nuns in a so called act of exorcism.
But what do you ( Ioan ) think about the fact that the priest was found guilty only for the lack of victim's freedom and a few days ago he was liberated? Justice is not religious....

Originally Posted by Brown, Jon Brow

They weren't intolerant because they were atheist. They were intolerant because they were communist.

You're not arguing over such important things with a Political Sciences Master holder like F1boat, are you?
He/she , of all of us, has the best knowledge about such things, he knows it all. Well at least that's what he/she says.

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

It’s with regret that I have (again!) to say you’re completely lost from the realities of your country. History is based on documents and not on what you listern at a queue in Matache market.

It’s a fact that there were informers among priests...

So what exactly is that I didn't understand?!
With regret I have to say that you don't understand what you read and write.

BTW I'm not sure what you Matache market is, I personally learned history from books not from your neighboring market, nor from the soap operas.

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

It’s a fact that there were informers among priests– this phenomenon occured esp in the last years of communism and I don’t think they did a lot of harm. The anticommunist feeling was quasi general in that period. Even “Secu” closed their eyes and only add “facts” at our files. And informers were among all of us, doctors, teachers, scientists, artists, writers or simply workers or peasants.

The Securitate were the 2nd most atrocious secret police in Eastern European countries, only surpassed by the East Germans.
People working in the Securitate were not closing their eyes to anything, every person over whom they've got an information has been interrogated and the means they were using were in many cases extreme.
Many thousands of people have been imprisoned for life and/or sentenced to hard work at the Danube / Black See channel, and you have think these brutal beasts were turning a blind eye to the information?! Tell that to all those poor political prisoners and to their families!
And those priests you try so hard to protect were the ones who spilled teh beans for many of those thousands who roted in prisons and in work camps!

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

It’s also a fact (but you seem to ignore it, hopefully you do it from lack of knowledge ) that in the stalinist period ( the one when you risked to be sent in jail or channel for a simple joke and when most of the horrible communist crimes had happened in communist camps) many priests were those who supported the resistance fight against communism, many of them were sent to jail –sometimes for the only fault that they believe in God-, and even in jail they helped the other political prisoners to keep their dignity.

Sure it is a fact, and the proof is where?!
How many of them turned into secret police informants and how many did something good. If you knew the facts you might be surprised. Though it seems that you are a bit misinformed. And BTW even though they have been proved to have been secret police informants those priest are still part of the church and still preaching to people about their gods teachings! Funny eh?!

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

BTW, Ioane, have you ever heared of father Dumitru Staniloae?

I'm not into religion, as you might have already realized, hopefully, so I don't really care about any one cherry picked examples of yours. I'm sure you know it by know, given how knowledgeable you are, that picking one case to counter another thousand is not really useful, though it might work well with the masses.

I've read not so long ago a story about a priest who recently did something good for the village that he is assigned too and I say good to him that's a person who deserves praise, the problem is that he's one of the very few priests who do such things even though the Church has the means (read money) to help the people in need.

Originally Posted by henners88

At least F1boat is arguing his point in a more mature manner and backing it up with examples. As an outsider in the debate trying to follow, its a darn sight more helpful.

Sure, sure, can you please point us out those examples? Looking forward to it. Thanks.

Though I know you're just trolling around here, so why don't you just get lost unless you have great knowledge about priests in communists countries between 1945 and 1989, in which case please do not keep it a secret.

ioan, cool down and remember that you are not in position to tell our members to get lost...thank you!

Originally Posted by ioan

So what exactly is that I didn't understand?!
With regret I have to say that you don't understand what you read and write. .

Really? In the future I’ll try to correct this….

Originally Posted by ioan

BTW I'm not sure what you Matache market is, I personally learned history from books not from your neighboring market, nor from the soap operas. .

“ Matache Macelaru’ ” is a famous market in Bucharest. Its name sounds so trivial to me that I often associate it with this city’s boorish.

Originally Posted by ioan

People working in the Securitate were not closing their eyes to anything, every person over whom they've got an information has been interrogated and the means they were using were in many cases extreme.
Many thousands of people have been imprisoned for life and/or sentenced to hard work at the Danube / Black See channel, and you have think these brutal beasts were turning a blind eye to the information?! Tell that to all those poor political prisoners and to their families!
And those priests you try so hard to protect were the ones who spilled teh beans for many of those thousands who roted in prisons and in work camps! .

I’m not trying to protect priests- why should I ?-. I’m only trying to see the the 2 sides of the coin.
I’m tired to explain you that the communist period in our country had different stages.
All of them were horrible but you can’t compare the Stalinist period with the 70-80’s years. The first is associated with the crimes you mentioned ( let’s not forget that the work at the Channel as a punishment for bourgeoisie was ceased in 1955 ) and also with a resistance movement. I’ll be glad if you can tell me the name of a priest who denounced in that period.
In the years of Ceausescu’s regime, Secu’ was still a fearful institution but however we felt somehow a liberalization. I dare say it was the period when Secu’ expanded its network of informers and priests were not exception. Let’s not forget either that Secu has its own role when Ceausescu was ousted.

.

Originally Posted by ioan

Sure it is a fact, and the proof is where?!
How many of them turned into secret police informants and how many did something good. If you knew the facts you might be surprised. Though it seems that you are a bit misinformed. And BTW even though they have been proved to have been secret police informants those priest are still part of the church and still preaching to people about their gods teachings! Funny eh?! .

Maybe you forgot that I’m aromanian and (too) many members of my community were political prisoners. I had relatives who spent about 17 years in those jails and it’s a miracle they survived.. One of my sources is their testimony. If they lied then I also lie you.

Originally Posted by ioan

I'm not into religion, as you might have already realized, hopefully, so I don't really care about any one cherry picked examples of yours. I'm sure you know it by know, given how knowledgeable you are, that picking one case to counter another thousand is not really useful, though it might work well with the masses. .

Sorry but you shouldn’t be religious to have knowledge of a special man. You can’t ignore a personality just because he was a priest.
BTW if the proportion is 1 to 1000 let’s be useful: I named one now it’s your turn to name 1000 delation priests to counterbalance my example. With proofs of course….

Originally Posted by ioan

I've read not so long ago a story about a priest who recently did something good for the village that he is assigned too and I say good to him that's a person who deserves praise, the problem is that he's one of the very few priests who do such things even though the Church has the means (read money) to help the people in need.

First of all the orthodox church is not as rich as the catholic one. But how can you know such cases when you live abroad and your information is based on what you read from time to time about what’s happening here? Charity is not a thing to make fuss of. and a lot of people does it keeping it in anonymity.

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Sorry but you shouldn’t be religious to have knowledge of a special man. You can’t ignore a personality just because he was a priest.
BTW if the proportion is 1 to 1000 let’s be useful: I named one now it’s your turn to name 1000 delation priests to counterbalance my example. With proofs of course….

Huh? Don't you think you are getting a bit over excited there? 1 to 1000?!

Originally Posted by ioan

Huh? Don't you think you are getting a bit over excited there? 1 to 1000?!

Who? Me???!!!?!

To quote you " given how knowledgeable you are, that picking one case to counter another thousand is not really useful ". So it's you who choose the proportion. I picked up a case and I'm still waiting for your 1000....

I believe there is a God. I find it very fulfilling to live my life believing that there is.