Thread: Kim Jong-Il dies - what now for North Korea?

Not to mention what a loss he is to the golfing world, best golfer ever.

Hey did you see all the people crying - but no tears

Originally Posted by Rudy Tamasz

The wrong cheek, perhaps. Having gone through an incomplete and painful transition with my country, and having seen what a mess some complete transitions did to post-Communist countries, and knowing for sure it would have been even worse without reforms, I have my feelings split between bitter and sarcastic.

I mean, come on, Stones the messengers of love and peace...

heh, well I think you're right, when the walls finally do come down it will be a mess for everyone. I hope the Kim dynasty lasts as long as possible so we can put that day off a little longer...

Originally Posted by Malbec

heh, well I think you're right, when the walls finally do come down it will be a mess for everyone. I hope the Kim dynasty lasts as long as possible so we can put that day off a little longer...

We could hope for a gradual and controlled transformation, like China has been going through and still is.

Originally Posted by Roamy

Hey did you see all the people crying - but no tears

Incredible right? Although, I dare say a fair few Hollywood A listers could learn a thing or two there for their next acceptance speech!

Originally Posted by Eki

We could hope for a gradual and controlled transformation, like China has been going through and still is.

China hasn't transformed politically, it was ruled by Communists with an iron grip and still is.

Originally Posted by Malbec

China hasn't transformed politically, it was ruled by Communists with an iron grip and still is.

Yes, it's still ruled by "Communists" with an iron grip, but politically it has changed a lot. For example China now has more than one million millionaires. In the old days it wouldn't have been possible or even allowed.

China

China has more than a million millionaires as economic growth, savings and a strengthening currency helped swell their ranks by 262,000 last year, according to a Boston Consulting Group survey.
Millionaire households jumped 31 percent in 2010 from the previous year to 1.11 million, the BCG Global Wealth Survey released yesterday showed.
China’s number of millionaire households ranks it third, behind the 5.22 million in the U.S. and Japan’s 1.53 million, according to BCG. Still, wealth in privately held businesses and property wasn’t accounted for in the survey, thereby missing a major chunk of economic assets in the mainland.
“This grossly underestimates true overall wealth in China,” said Tjun Tang, a partner at BCG in Hong Kong and one of the report’s authors. The survey also excludes works of art, fine wines and yachts, a growing class of assets among China’s well-heeled.
China ranks eighth globally for households with assets worth more than $100 million, with 393, according to the survey.
The Asian nation’s affluent class only holds about 5 percent of its wealth offshore, said Tang, and international wealth management companies are constrained by the number of products they can offer inside China.

Originally Posted by Eki

Yes, it's still ruled by "Communists" with an iron grip, but politically it has changed a lot. For example China now has more than one million millionaires. In the old days it wouldn't have been possible or even allowed.

But what political changes has this increasing wealth brought about? For the majority of the population, does it even seem likely to bring any about?

Originally Posted by Eki

Yes, it's still ruled by "Communists" with an iron grip, but politically it has changed a lot. For example China now has more than one million millionaires. In the old days it wouldn't have been possible or even allowed.

Economically it has changed a lot which is why there are new millionaires, but there are no new political freedoms.

Originally Posted by Malbec

China hasn't transformed politically, it was ruled by Communists with an iron grip and still is.

however if push came to shove, China would (imo) side against North Korea as much of China's economy relies on selling cheap goods to the western world and its allies, who could purchase from elsewhere - Indian subcontinent, Latin America, Africa etc

Originally Posted by Malbec

heh, well I think you're right, when the walls finally do come down it will be a mess for everyone. I hope the Kim dynasty lasts as long as possible so we can put that day off a little longer...

I don't know what would be better in this case. I guess there is no good solution to the Korean problem, just like there is no good solution to Afghanistan, or Iraq, or Somalia, or you name it.

With all my sarcasm, I feel for common Korean who must be suffering incredibly, often without even realizing it.

Originally Posted by Eki

Yes, it's still ruled by "Communists" with an iron grip, but politically it has changed a lot. For example China now has more than one million millionaires. In the old days it wouldn't have been possible or even allowed.

China

Another step to world domination. Speaking in F1 terms, they must be spraying champagne from the Great Wall after another GP won.

Originally Posted by Captain VXR

however if push came to shove, China would (imo) side against North Korea as much of China's economy relies on selling cheap goods to the western world and its allies, who could purchase from elsewhere - Indian subcontinent, Latin America, Africa etc

If wikileaks is to be believed China already thinks of the North Koreans as a nuisance, not an ally anyway.

I wasn't suggesting that China will assist NK, just that China's political system hasn't changed.

Originally Posted by Malbec

If wikileaks is to be believed China already thinks of the North Koreans as a nuisance, not an ally anyway.

I wasn't suggesting that China will assist NK, just that China's political system hasn't changed.

Well if they'd left well alone in the first place North Korea wouldn't exist - they've got themselves to blame for this one.

Originally Posted by Bolton Midnight

Not to mention what a loss he is to the golfing world, best golfer ever.

38 under was truly an amazing round. This is how BBC Five Live called it:
Kim Jong-il: Golf legend? - YouTube

He may have given World No.1 Luke Donald a run for his money.

Originally Posted by Mark

Well if they'd left well alone in the first place North Korea wouldn't exist - they've got themselves to blame for this one.

I presume you mean China's decision to intervene in the Korean War. If you want to blame anyone for the Kim dynasty its the Soviet Union who installed him.

I think it was pretty obvious that neither China nor Russia were going to allow a directly neighbouring country to fall into the hands of the US or one of its allies.

That said I think China's behaviour with NK is pretty reasonable, friendly enough not to induce a fit of paranoia in them but able to tell them when they are pushing too far. When it comes to negotiations with NK China is extremely useful.

Originally Posted by Rollo

38 under was truly an amazing round. This is how BBC Five Live called it:
Kim Jong-il: Golf legend? - YouTube

He may have given World No.1 Luke Donald a run for his money.

And he may even have holed a putt longer than Terry Wogan's famous one.

Originally Posted by Rollo

The ABC:
North Korean leader Kim Jong-il dead - World (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)
North Korean leader Kim Jong-il has died, a tearful state television announcer dressed in black reported.
The announcer said that the 69-year-old had died of physical and mental over-work while on a train trip, on his way to give "field guidance".

The BBC:
BBC News - N Korean leader Kim Jong-il dies
North Korean leader Kim Jong-il has died at the age of 69, state-run television has announced.
Mr Kim, who has led the communist nation since the death of his father in 1994, died on a train while visiting an area outside the capital, the announcement said.

The Age:
North Korean leader Kim Jong Il dead
Kim Jong Il, the second-generation North Korean dictator who defied global condemnation to build nuclear weapons while his people starved, has died, Yonhap News reported.
He is believed to have been 70 years old, although North Korean official records said he was 69 years old.

The news came in a radio broadcast at noon local time, Yonhap reported, citing North Korea's official media. The veteran leader died on December 17 at 8.30am, a weeping announcer said, Agence France-Presse reported.

Three separate sources all reputable and all reporting the same thing. I think it's safe to assume that this is the genuine article.

I can only hope that this is the beginning of North Korea's acceptance back into the free-world and the reunification process; maybe even bringing back the Emperor. Hopefully Seoul and Pyongyang will start talks more or less immediately to finally get rid of the stupid line that separates the two Koreas.

Late, I know, but what an absolutely awesome christmas present that was. Great news that he finally croaked, awesome.

The dictator is dead, long live the new dictator