Thread: Prostitution

I'm trying an exercise of imagination: supposing prostitution will be legalised in my country and the profession of "whore" will be accepted by society....
One day I'll lose my job and I go to the Agency of unemployed workers to find out the only vacant jobs are in a brothel.....

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

I think the question was if it’s legal or illegal. Legal or illegal it’s immoral. It alwavs existed, still exists and will exist forever. But I think it’s wrong to legalise an immoral act.

You guys, talked a lot about the age of consent - which is not neccessarily related to prostitution. But what about the girls ( not neccessarily under 18) , most of them from eastern Europe, who are victims of the human traffic networks ?


P.S. Fatality! I posted this 10 minutes ago and I couldn't view it. Had to type it again......

Consentual sex, say with an individual someone meets in a bar over a few drinks is fine, not puritanic, etc. but sex for money is immoral...? Not sure I understand that logic. Who defines morality? Legalizing and regulating prostitution, which you freely admit has essentially always existed and will never go away, seems for more logical than attempting to legislate morality. I have ZERO problem with regulating it from a public health aspect to prevent abuse and disease, and establishing a minimum age. We have established minimum ages for employment in all employment for jsut that purpose. If someone is of a culturally and socially agreed upon age to consent to sex, what business is it of the government to decide if they choose to perform sex acts for money if they comply with health standards?

Human trafficing exists in far more industries than just prostitution. Regulate prostitution, and you make it far easier to identify things like human trafficing.

Originally Posted by nigelred5

Consentual sex, say with an individual someone meets in a bar over a few drinks is fine, not puritanic, etc. but sex for money is immoral...? Not sure I understand that logic..

In the first situation it might be ( at least ) a physical attraction.
Although, consentual sex, say with an individual someone meets in a bar over a few drinks could be also immoral if the "someone" is married or seriously involved in a relationship.

On the other hand a "profesional" prostitute has no right to choose. The client is paying and she has to accept the "advances" of any man no matter how he looks, smells, behaves, etc. Clients see a whore like a sexual object, they pay and pretend. And she has to accept the fantasies, sometimes the brutality. Not to mention that she's obliged to have more clients/night.
I know it's her body that "perform" the "activity", but this kind of activity definitely let marks in their souls.
Maybe you're right, what business is it of the government to decide if they choose to perform sex acts for money if they comply with health standards? But as far as I'm concerned I want my government to guarantee dignity to all its citizens.

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

On brief:
1. First of all there are also men who marries women for money but what opinions can I expect in a men’s world? At the end of the day prostitution is not only a feminine privilege. There are also masculine „cocottes”.

My comments were not meant to be exclusive to one gender or the other. My feelings on the matter apply to both sexes.

2. Even in marriages that were based on love and mutual interests at some point may appear misunderstandings. Still the partners continue to live together. Do you think it’s also a sort of socially acceptable prostitution?

Only if the sole or primary reason they stay together has to do with finances. If one is exchanging favors for the benefit of the other's money, then yes, I see that as a form of prostitution.

3. I’m afraid you see marriage as a legal cadre to perform sexual acts. Personally I think it deals with a lot more other things than sexual relationships. Maybe that’s the reason why it requires a lot of thinking before assuming it.

No, this is not correct. That is not how I see marriage at all. The physical relationship is simply the one element of a marriage that is being discussed here. I'm sure that it would be possible for a prostitute and her(his?) client to fall in love and form a non-financially based relationship. But again, that is outside the scope of what we're talking about here... or so I thought.

More than that, when you marry someone you are supposed to start a family and to live in common with that person, when you go to the whores it’s like my father used to say „Incaleca si fute/Descaleca si du-te” - can’t translate this because it would lose the saviour of the rhyme. ( But I must apoligize to Ioan, for using such a rude expression. Otherwise, in real life I'm a very polite person ).

Ideally, yes. I agree with that.

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

I think the question was if it’s legal or illegal. Legal or illegal it’s immoral. It alwavs existed, still exists and will exist forever. But I think it’s wrong to legalise an immoral act.

Morality is subjective and relative. What is immoral (or moral) to one may not be immoral (or moral) to another. We could probably all agree that murder is immoral and wrong. But when trying to put a fine point on what constitutes murder (apart from the very obvious), we might not all agree. During war, is it moral or immoral, murder or an act of war, if a nation's leader orders a region to be bombed and non-combatants are killed in their beds? As far as prostitution, while I respect your opinion that it is immoral, I do not believe the government (lawmakers) should be legislating what two adults above the age of consent can or cannot do with one another. If I believe it is immoral or wrong, then I should simply not do it. Why should I need a law legislating what other adults can or cannot do? The same applies to pornography, marijuana, alcohol and a great many other things that someone may say is "wrong" or "immoral". If I don't like them, then I should not partake of those things.

You guys, talked a lot about the age of consent - which is not neccessarily related to prostitution. But what about the girls ( not neccessarily under 18) , most of them from eastern Europe, who are victims of the human traffic networks ?

True, age of consent is not necessarily (just) related to prostitution. But in the case of human trafficking, we are talking about people (not just girls, as you pointed out previously) who quite likely have not given consent at all - no matter what their age is. And it often times does involve underage victims. We had a case in North Carolina just a year or so ago, where teenage girls from Mexico (some as young as 14) were being held against their will in a series of houses and used as prostitutes for migrant workers. In the Brighton Beach area of New York there is a large Russian immigrant (some illegal) population. And that area is known as a crime hub for drug smuggling, as well as human trafficking of Eastern European females. On the West Coast, the issue seems to center around Asians (Chinese mostly) and Mexicans.

But again, I see the issue of sex slaves and human trafficking as separate from the general question of prostitution, where we're talking about non-coercive arrangements between adults who are giving consent.

Originally Posted by Jag_Warrior

Morality is subjective and relative. What is immoral (or moral) to one may not be immoral (or moral) to another. We could probably all agree that murder is immoral and wrong. But when trying to put a fine point on what constitutes murder (apart from the very obvious), we might not all agree. During war, is it moral or immoral, murder or an act of war, if a nation's leader orders a region to be bombed and non-combatants are killed in their beds?

I confess that after reading Vladimir Nabokov's novel "Lolita", understanding why the pervert Humbert Humbert acted like that and that the 12 years old victim was more immoral than the seducer, my sympathy went to the former character. However that can't make pedophilia less immoral.

Originally Posted by henners88

That really is a totally different kettle of fish to adult prostitution though isn't it?

Yes but I was talking about the moral/immoral things in general.

So let's also legalise robbery as it's also something that will never be eradicated and is probably as old as prostitution.
And in some conditions it could also have a good function: to reassign wealth in society.

Originally Posted by henners88

Robbery may not be something that can be totally eradicated but its also very different to two consenting adults having sex for money is it not? Robbery is taking ones possessions through force and without consent, whereas prostitution is an illegal service in many countries where the product on sale is offered/invited and purchased.

But both robber and prostitute do their "job" for their living.....The robber may say he can't get a job and he does it to support his family.

As for consenting... I also consent to do a lot of things in my life but they make me terribly unhappy and I feel deeply humiliated.

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

But both robber and prostitute do their "job" for their living.....The robber may say he can't get a job and he does it to support his family.

As for consenting... I also consent to do a lot of things in my life but they make me terribly unhappy and I feel deeply humiliated.

The robber's victim does not give their consent. Both parties in the case of prostitution give consent. This is the key issue.

I totally agree that prostitution is dehumanising and demeaning but it is also a choice. The establishment of a welfare system across Europe that allows people of both sexes to live without a job should have demolished prostitution if people only did it to survive but it hasn't.

I think its unrealistic to prohibit consensual behaviour simply on the basis that it can make an individual unhappy or humiliated. Perhaps we should make it illegal for people to lose jobs on that basis?

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

But as far as I'm concerned I want my government to guarantee dignity to all its citizens.

Again, there is no single definition of 'dignity'.

Originally Posted by Malbec

Perhaps we should make it illegal for people to lose jobs on that basis?

The only thing I'm sure of is that I may lose my job if I'll continue to write here.
And despite a spanish armada of about 30000 people ready to take by assault my city tonight, I'm not in the position to go out "to produce ".

Originally Posted by BDunnell

Again, there is no single definition of 'dignity'.

Again, I'm sorry. I can't concentrate anymore. Too much noise....

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

Again, I'm sorry. I can't concentrate anymore. Too much noise....

Oh, don't apologise. You make very valid points — it's just that I don't entirely agree with them.

Originally Posted by henners88

I feel the same as you. All very sensible debate .

Absolutely.

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

More than that, when you marry someone you are supposed to start a family and to live in common with that person, when you go to the whores it’s like my father used to say „Incaleca si fute/Descaleca si du-te” - can’t translate this because it would lose the saviour of the rhyme. ( But I must apoligize to Ioan, for using such a rude expression. Otherwise, in real life I'm a very polite person ).

Don't worry, I think that is a great saying! Plus I am a very liberal person.

Originally Posted by gadjo_dilo

I'm trying an exercise of imagination: supposing prostitution will be legalised in my country and the profession of "whore" will be accepted by society....
One day I'll lose my job and I go to the Agency of unemployed workers to find out the only vacant jobs are in a brothel.....

You're making a mistake by comparing prostitution with other jobs. Prostitution means selling your body, the other jobs mean selling your soul!

Originally Posted by ioan

You're making a mistake by comparing prostitution with other jobs. Prostitution means selling your body, the other jobs mean selling your soul!

Like it.

Thanks. I hope this will brighten also Gadjo's day!

Originally Posted by ioan

Thanks. I hope this will brighten also Gadjo's day!

Thanks for the beautiful intentions but unfortunately NOTHING can brighten my days.
I'm a lost case.