Thread: BRC to be two wheel drive only in 2012

I would love WRC cars in the BRC, but in reality I think we should go back to proper group N as what we have now must be nothing like it!

They should be your normal impreza/evo/anything else 4wd, toughened up for rallying and that is all! That way the drivers gain experience and costs would surely be reduced.

Let's look back to when the British championship was at its most successful in the past. The category A7/Formula 2 era was very good indeed, I grant, but I would never put it on a pedestal alongside the Open championship circa 1980-85. Of course, no-one can expect any of the WRC works teams to run a full British championship programme as Audi did for much of that period, but there is one important comparison to be made. In that period, and indeed for several years before and after, the British series ran to the same technical regulations as did the world championship. The front-runners in Britain were to be found driving the same sort of Escorts, Ascona and Manta 400s, Quattros and the like as could be found in the world series. There was a ready supply of such cars, and in Britain their drivers could compete against, and beat, the best international drivers. Now, while none of the top British drivers of that era such as Jimmy McRae, Tony Pond and Malcolm Wilson achieved huge success internationally, it could be argued that they didn't need to, because the strength of the British championship and the level of competition was so high. The talent of these drivers and others was not in doubt — they proved it time and again when competing against the likes of Mikkola, Toivonen and Blomqvist on British soil.

Since that era, sadly, we have seen costs rising to such an extent that it is no longer practical for there to exist that parity between the front-running cars in domestic and world championships. This, I feel, is a huge shame and one of the reasons why domestic rally series such as that in Britain have been in such decline. Is it any coincidence, either, that Britain's world-class rally drivers all competed in the British series during the period when it was contested using the same sort of equipment as was the world championship?

I would be careful with comparison to F2 times. All top F2 cars were very expensive specially built machines.Sometimes even more advanced than WRC cars.

Fair enough but the concept of 2wd wasn't boring. Certainly they sounded brilliant, especially in the forests. By comparison I think these 4wd N4 cars are seriously boring as they are so quiet and hardly look like they're going quickly. Now along comes a S2000 car that sounds awesome and it looks quicker, meanwhile its setting similar times.

Also I think it depends on the level of competition in the series. During the F2 era there were a few manufacturers battling it out and stage times were very close so everyone was pushing very hard. Similar thing in our SA championship where we have S2000 and the top 5 in any stage are less than 10sec apart so everyone is pushing to the max. From the bits that I've seen of the BRC these days it doesn't look very interesting at all.

Originally Posted by Bruce D

Fair enough but the concept of 2wd wasn't boring. Certainly they sounded brilliant, especially in the forests. By comparison I think these 4wd N4 cars are seriously boring as they are so quiet and hardly look like they're going quickly. Now along comes a S2000 car that sounds awesome and it looks quicker, meanwhile its setting similar times.

I agree. I would suggest that very few people beyond those competing have ever been interested in Group N.

Originally Posted by BDunnell

I agree. I would suggest that very few people beyond those competing have ever been interested in Group N.

Indeed. Endless streams of Evos and Imprezas can get very, very tedious unless the driver is really going for it. 2WD just means that you need to work harder to find a decent place to watch, and that's part of the fun IMO.

Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo

2WD just means that you need to work harder to find a decent place to watch, and that's part of the fun IMO.

For hardcore fans it's true. But it doesn't work in making crowds, media and sponsors interested.

Originally Posted by Mirek

For hardcore fans it's true. But it doesn't work in making crowds, media and sponsors interested.

The two-wheel-drive Sunbeam Lotuses, Escorts, Asconas, Mantas, 037s and so on seemed to manage to do so.

Originally Posted by Mr Jan Yeo

Indeed. Endless streams of Evos and Imprezas can get very, very tedious unless the driver is really going for it.

It's always been the case. In 1989, even Pentti Airikkala in a Group N Galant VR-4 and Colin McRae in a Group N Sierra Cosworth never really got the pulse racing. Yet some of the most spectacular drives one could ever hope to see — Per Eklund in a Corolla GT on the 1983 Mintex International, Jean Ragnotti in the R11 Turbo on the 1987 Portuguese Rally, Airikkala in a Kadett GSi on the Manx in 1987, and of course Stig Blomqvist in the Skoda Felicia on the 1996 RAC, have been in underpowered front-wheel-drive machinery.

Originally Posted by BDunnell

The two-wheel-drive Sunbeam Lotuses, Escorts, Asconas, Mantas, 037s and so on seemed to manage to do so.

Yes, but those were RWD. You don't have modern FIA homologated RWD cars useful on gravel.

I think and hope that a good competition will automatically bring nice passages, if everybody is pushing, it should be good to watch, also in 2WD.
There is almost no use in having a top class with only 2-3 contenders (like in Belgium). It's fun to watch because it are monsters of cars, but it has much less to do with competition and sport.
That's how I see it.

Originally Posted by Bruce D

Fair enough but the concept of 2wd wasn't boring. Certainly they sounded brilliant, especially in the forests. By comparison I think these 4wd N4 cars are seriously boring as they are so quiet and hardly look like they're going quickly. Now along comes a S2000 car that sounds awesome and it looks quicker, meanwhile its setting similar times.

This is true for F2 cars , but name one attractive modern FWD car besides S1600 . Trust me , I have seen ALL of them many times in action and I just can't imagine they would make crowds and collect media and sponsors . Ony cars remotely attractive are the Clio R3 and the very rare Civic R3 ...

Originally Posted by HaCo

I think and hope that a good competition will automatically bring nice passages, if everybody is pushing, it should be good to watch, also in 2WD.
There is almost no use in having a top class with only 2-3 contenders (like in Belgium). It's fun to watch because it are monsters of cars, but it has much less to do with competition and sport.
That's how I see it.

I guarantee you that your championship wouldn't be nearly as developed if Snijers would drive a 207 R3T , Melissa a Megane N4 and Tsjoen a DS3 R3 instead of WRCs...

Originally Posted by Sulland

The UK have gone in this direction once before, in the 90s or something, where F2 kit cars was top class - and that was not a huge success if I remember correct.

I don't think your memory is correct. It was a successful era with close competition between several works teams. It only ended when one manufacturer lobbied hard for a 4WD formula (becuase they happened to have such a car and it wasn't very competitive at WRC level) and then withdrew from rallying before the next season.

Originally Posted by Allyc85

I would love WRC cars in the BRC, but in reality I think we should go back to proper group N as what we have now must be nothing like it!

They should be your normal impreza/evo/anything else 4wd, toughened up for rallying and that is all! That way the drivers gain experience and costs would surely be reduced.

+1

Originally Posted by urabus-denoS2000

This is true for F2 cars , but name one attractive modern FWD car besides S1600 . Trust me , I have seen ALL of them many times in action and I just can't imagine they would make crowds and collect media and sponsors . Ony cars remotely attractive are the Clio R3 and the very rare Civic R3 ...

Very good point, and I hardly think a S1600 car is very spectacular either to be honest. And unfortunately the likelihood is that they will be 1600cc machines not 2000cc machines cos thats the general way manufacturers are going. Actually a 1600cc turbo FWD machine could be interesting but controlling the wheelspin from the torque could be a major issue. Which would mean fancy diffs and traction control, and there goes the cost already.

Originally Posted by Bruce D

Very good point, and I hardly think a S1600 car is very spectacular either to be honest. And unfortunately the likelihood is that they will be 1600cc machines not 2000cc machines cos thats the general way manufacturers are going. Actually a 1600cc turbo FWD machine could be interesting but controlling the wheelspin from the torque could be a major issue. Which would mean fancy diffs and traction control, and there goes the cost already.

And therein lies the problem — and why the course the British championship is taking is probably by far the most sensible one open to it, given the complete financial inaccessibility of WRC cars to teams running in national championships. Jean Todt has performed very well so far at the FIA, and I very much hope he carries on in this manner — not least by addressing this important topic. National championships need to be able to run top-line equipment.

Originally Posted by Bruce D

Well I remember the Formula 2 years been very good, although they got too expensive with the kit cars. Maybe it's not a bad move.

I think for this reason alone it's something that at least needs to be tried and who knows, it may work very well.

Im just seeing this update in my email and I ask myself what kind of lunacy is this??? What is modern rallying without at least 4WD?? I know the proponents of this new system will say that the costs will be severely reduced but are they really??? The fact is folks, that motorsport at BRC level or any other 'high' level is bound to be expensive. Racing costs money. When the championship reverts to 2WD in 2012 manufacturers and teams will spend the maximum their budgets allow in order to capitalise on the rules. Lets face it folks, the 'big' teams are almost always going to win because they command greater resources.....if you havent got alot of money, then you havent got enough. Simple. I think its a bad idea, could someone explain this utter rubbish to me????