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Roamy
29th December 2006, 09:40
Now how many racers do you know that should have gotten a ride and didn't
because of lack of sponsorship?. I managed probably had the fastest US driver at one time and his seat was bought out by Provomi Veal for Ari Luyendyke. So how many guys are in F1 because of bucks VS raw talent.

What if in F1 the pinnacle you could't but a drive ?

Ranger
29th December 2006, 11:37
Didn't Bourdais lose out to Monteiro in the '05 Jordan seat because Monteiro brought more dough?

Mikeall
29th December 2006, 17:25
No he wasn't even considered Trevor Carlin just called Monteiro and Karthikeyen, two drivers who had driven for him either the previous year or in the past, and told them if they could get the sponsors they would have a drive in F1. Carlin already had a partnership with Portuguese sponsors in the World Series, F3 and Formula BMW so that was taken care of while Karthikeyen was always going to be able to find sponsors in India.

harsha
30th December 2006, 03:21
does not getting a drive in a decent car count :?: ,then i pick Alex Wurz,unless you count the one shot he had in 2005..........

Viv
30th December 2006, 05:41
Well..Wurz din't have a race winning car, but if you say decent, I'd say Benetton was a decent car.

agwiii
30th December 2006, 11:14
Now how many racers do you know that should have gotten a ride and didn't because of lack of sponsorship?. I managed probably had the fastest US driver at one time and his seat was bought out by Provomi Veal for Ari Luyendyke. So how many guys are in F1 because of bucks VS raw talent. What if in F1 the pinnacle you could't but a drive ?

If you lack talent, you'd better bring money. Having both would be convenient in the hyper-political world of F1.

Valve Bounce
30th December 2006, 11:14
Sorry fousto, but I have to agree with you that is the sad state of affairs in F1 right now. Pay drivers, or drivers who can bring a lot of sponsorship cash make up a huge part of F1. Williams used to hire champions and champions in the making; now it's all about cash. Sad, I know!!

agwiii
30th December 2006, 19:44
Sorry fousto, but I have to agree with you that is the sad state of affairs in F1 right now. Pay drivers, or drivers who can bring a lot of sponsorship cash make up a huge part of F1. Williams used to hire champions and champions in the making; now it's all about cash. Sad, I know!!

:up: It is a new era.

BeansBeansBeans
30th December 2006, 23:19
So few people get a chance to try motorsport, due to the costs involved.

It's highly likely that the most naturally talented racing driver in the world has never even sat in a racing car.

BeansBeansBeans
30th December 2006, 23:20
Sorry fousto, but I have to agree with you that is the sad state of affairs in F1 right now. Pay drivers, or drivers who can bring a lot of sponsorship cash make up a huge part of F1. Williams used to hire champions and champions in the making; now it's all about cash. Sad, I know!!

There are less pay drivers on the grid now than there used to be.

Valve Bounce
30th December 2006, 23:56
I think the term Pay Driver is very difficult to define. Some drivers, although they do get paid, bring a helluva lot of sponsorship money to a team, or their salary is covered by the motor supplier.

Then, of course, a driver like SchM or Alonso could actually end up bringing more money to the team through various ways (like clothing and flag sales) than the team pays them.

But yeah! there are some drivers who get into a team ahead of more gifted drivers simply because they bring money and sponsorship to the team, without which a team like Williams nowadays simply could not survive.

millencolin
31st December 2006, 03:50
Didn't Bourdais lose out to Monteiro in the '05 Jordan seat because Monteiro brought more dough?

i thought that was briscoe

agwiii
31st December 2006, 05:01
I think the term Pay Driver is very difficult to define. Some drivers, although they do get paid, bring a helluva lot of sponsorship money to a team, or their salary is covered by the motor supplier.

Then, of course, a driver like SchM or Alonso could actually end up bringing more money to the team through various ways (like clothing and flag sales) than the team pays them.

But yeah! there are some drivers who get into a team ahead of more gifted drivers simply because they bring money and sponsorship to the team, without which a team like Williams nowadays simply could not survive.

Timing is everything. When Schumacher started, he needed Eddie Jordan's money to get into the race.

BeansBeansBeans
31st December 2006, 10:00
Timing is everything. When Schumacher started, he needed Eddie Jordan's money to get into the race.

I understood that Jordan gave Schumacher the drive, because Schumacher had financial backing from Mercedes.

31st December 2006, 10:58
I understood that Jordan gave Schumacher the drive, because Schumacher had financial backing from Mercedes.

Mercedes paid £250,000 for Schumi to have the drive.

That said, Michael needed the financial backing of Willi Weber to move from karting to cars. Without that, he wouldn't have been part of the Mercedes 'Junior' programme to begin with.

Bezza
31st December 2006, 16:56
does not getting a drive in a decent car count :?: ,then i pick Alex Wurz,unless you count the one shot he had in 2005..........

The Benetton had it moments specifically in early 1998 and early 2000 - Wurz was initial the equal of Fisi but from mid 98 onwards was consistently and comfortably outperformed by Fisi.

He had his chance over a number of years and is lucky to have another one now at Williams for 2007.

agwiii
31st December 2006, 18:49
I understood that Jordan gave Schumacher the drive, because Schumacher had financial backing from Mercedes.

EJ has taken credit for coming up with the money to get MS his first drive. What is the saying about drivers? "The older I get, the faster I was." Perhaps there is an element in this one too -- the "I helped Schumacher when he was nobody."

BeansBeansBeans
31st December 2006, 18:56
EJ has taken credit for coming up with the money to get MS his first drive. What is the saying about drivers? "The older I get, the faster I was." Perhaps there is an element in this one too -- the "I helped Schumacher when he was nobody."

Don't know where you heard that.

EJ always says that people credit him with discovering Schumacher, but that in reality he only gave him the drive because he had loads of Mercedes cash.

BDunnell
31st December 2006, 19:00
Don't know where you heard that.

EJ always says that people credit him with discovering Schumacher, but that in reality he only gave him the drive because he had loads of Mercedes cash.

Indeed. Dave Coyne might (would?) have got the drive otherwise.

jso1985
31st December 2006, 21:28
:up: It is a new era.

Really? from what I know most drivers in the 50's and 60's payed their drives.

Valve Bounce
1st January 2007, 00:25
Yeah! just ask Niki Lauda.

agwiii
1st January 2007, 23:38
Really? from what I know most drivers in the 50's and 60's payed their drives.

Interesting assertion. "Most drivers in the 50's and 60's payed their drives."

Citations please!

Mikeall
2nd January 2007, 00:18
Don't know where you heard that.

EJ always says that people credit him with discovering Schumacher, but that in reality he only gave him the drive because he had loads of Mercedes cash.

I just read in this months F1 Racing that Sauber-Mercedes paid for Schumacher's drive and Merecedes only paid for a third of it, the rest was directly from Sauber.

wmcot
2nd January 2007, 00:25
I wonder how many "pay drivers" went on to eventually become WDC? Lauda and Schumacher are the two I know of. (According to the definition we are using of "pay drivers")

agwiii
2nd January 2007, 02:55
I just read in this months F1 Racing that Sauber-Mercedes paid for Schumacher's drive and Merecedes only paid for a third of it, the rest was directly from Sauber.

I have also seen a claim by Peter Sauber that he paid the fee. History is a funny thing, isn't it?

jso1985
4th January 2007, 18:21
Interesting assertion. "Most drivers in the 50's and 60's payed their drives."

Citations please!

don't have citations but weren'r most of them privateers in their own car?

Roamy
4th January 2007, 18:37
the buy in may be a little in the front end - i would not consider MS a pay driver in the slightest. I guess tiago and some dutch guys are. yoong i believe was as pay driver. I don't mind a pay driver too much if they can kick some ass but most are lame at best

agwiii
4th January 2007, 18:37
don't have citations but weren'r most of them privateers in their own car?

Most of them? However, this is not the same as a "payed driver."

4th January 2007, 18:45
I don't mind a pay driver too much if they can kick some ass but most are lame at best

You mean you didn't rate Gaston Mazzacane or Esteban Truero?

They weren't so much lame as positively limbless.

SuperAguri
4th January 2007, 19:19
Taki Inoue missed out on a Minardi drive in 1996 because his Yen didn't appear. Shame, I would have liked to see more comedy.

I am evil Homer
5th January 2007, 13:07
Steffan Bellof...his performance at 'that' Monaco GP in 1984 was as outstanding as Senna.

Why he wasn't picked up for the '85 season by a top team still baffles me. Then most of know what happened a few years later at Spa :(

ShiftingGears
5th January 2007, 13:25
I thought he had a two year contract at Tyrell?...Besides, it was a popular rumour (possibly even fact) that Ferrari would've signed Bellof for '86.

D-Type
5th January 2007, 23:19
don't have citations but weren'r most of them privateers in their own car?Here's the challenge - name one championship race in the 50s or 60s with more privateers than works entries.

Exceptions -
1. Indianapolis as every entry was technically a privateer
2. The 1960 Italian GP
3. The Formula 2 entry of races with both Formula 1 and Formula 2 classes, ie work the proportion on the Formula 1 entry

If you can name five races i'll be very surprised.

Simpson RX1
26th January 2007, 23:19
The big difference between paying drivers of the past and those of the modern era, is that until the introduction of the Superlicence, which was specifically introduced to raise the standard of F1 drivers, anyone with a big enough bag of cash could get a drive in an F1 car.

These days, there are very few drivers qualified to hold a Superlicence, so the term 'pay driver' means something quite different; you may be in a better position to get a drive if you come with a sackful of gold, but anyone qualified to drive an F1 car should be capable of staying on the track and not being a danger to himself or others, which wasn't always the case in the past.

futuretiger9
27th January 2007, 19:04
The involvement of the major manufacturers should reduce the number of pay drivers on the grid. They have the luxury of hiring drivers purely on merit. However, it is still a major consideration for the bottom two or three teams. Just a fact of life.

When bemoaning the failure of talented pilots being blocked out of F1 by rent-a-drivers, perhaps we should consider whether the talented drivers would want to drive for the lower-ranked teams anyway. Surely they would be better off getting a testing contract with a top team, or racing in ChampCars/DTM until a better F1 opening emerged.

The prevalence of pay-drivers was much more marked during the early 1990s recession, when I would say three-quarters of the grid were forced to appoint drivers largely on sponsorship grounds. This was evidenced by the lateness of announcing driver line-ups in those days. 1992 was I think the low point, if you want to call it that. I remember reading Autosport early that year, and finding that Team X was awaiting confirmation that Driver Y would bring a bag of gold from Sponsor Z.

As regards Williams, it is unusual for them to be apparently basing driver appointment decisions to some extent on overt commercial grounds. I think I'm not alone in being distinctly underwhelmed by their driver line-up for this year. Too much pressure is being placed on Nico Rosberg's shoulders.