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52Paddy
6th July 2009, 23:45
I was reading an ITV annual from the pre-2000 season build up. In it, was the team and driver profiles from 1999 and projected ideas for the coming season (2000.) Mentioned as possible drivers for that season were Juan Pablo Montoya (who would make his break the following year), Dario Franchitti (who went to Indycars), Bruno Junqueira (who did likewise) and Jorg Muller (who went down the touring car road.) Now, those 3 latter drivers are unlikely ever going to appear in an official F1 race. Over the years, there have surely been other drivers in the pipeline for a drive, which never materialised and now, its looks unlikely that they ever will get a chance. Drivers who were a team's test driver and never actually raced, count in this instance.

I have to say that I'd be surprised if Gary Paffett makes an F1 drive having spent so much time now in touring cars.

wedge
7th July 2009, 01:22
JPM was loaned out to Ganassi by Williams

Dario was at his peak in Champcars, was offered the Jaguar ride but turned it down because he viewed them as a second rate team.

Junqueira lost out to Button in the very close testing shoot out and went off to America and completely ignored.

The strange one I remember well is Gil De Ferran was ignored by the F1 fraternity even though he was doing good things at Walker Racing in Champcars despite being F3000 champion.

Saint Devote
7th July 2009, 04:07
JPM was loaned out to Ganassi by Williams

Dario was at his peak in Champcars, was offered the Jaguar ride but turned it down because he viewed them as a second rate team.

Junqueira lost out to Button in the very close testing shoot out and went off to America and completely ignored.

The strange one I remember well is Gil De Ferran was ignored by the F1 fraternity even though he was doing good things at Walker Racing in Champcars despite being F3000 champion.

Eh?
Franchitti was offered nothing. He tested for Jaguar in the wet alongside Tomas Scheckter and he was SLOW.

There were "excuses" muttered but in reality Franchitti has never been f1 material and never considered by anyone. He remained in the United States - nowhere near as difficult a racing environment.

And discovered that he was no better in NASCAR - hence a "return to daddy" - IndyCars.

Gil de Ferran - He did everything at the time required as far as performance - problem was his class of drivers in f3000 were never highly rated and decided against a 3rd year and he never did the financial work many drivers have to do to reach f1. This means striving for sponsorship to get an f1 contract.

He preferred to race in the US being paid.

7th July 2009, 10:35
Andy Wallace. British F3 champion in 1986. Won Le Mans for Jaguar. Never got near an F1 car.

Marc Hynes. British F3 champion in 1999. Beat Jenson Button. Never got near an F1 car....didn't even get a drive the following year in any category.

Alain Ferte. F2 & F3000 race winner...during the 'boom' time for French motorsport...ended up racing trucks.

Gary Brabham. F3 British championship runner up & British F3000 champion. Did two GP meetings with the infamous Life....completing less than 3 laps. Hardly what his talent deserved.

ArrowsFA1
7th July 2009, 12:11
Franchitti was offered nothing. He tested for Jaguar in the wet alongside Tomas Scheckter and he was SLOW.
According to Dario (http://www.independent.co.uk/sport/motor-racing/franchittis-drive-to-win-fans-688621.html):
"In many ways I wish I hadn't done the Jaguar test. They were having a difficult time in the Formula One world championship and couldn't do the job properly. They have apologised to me for that."

Sonic
7th July 2009, 13:46
So many good drivers; just not enough seats to go around.

Jan Magnussen comes to mind but for different reasons. SOooooo quick in every other series. Got that one of ride at the Pacific GP in '95 as was anonymous in the mid-field. He was driving a bucket of a mac though so I expected him to show more in his full time seat at Stewart - but sadly he just proved not up to the challenge.

We could also have an equally long thread of pants drivers who did make it to F1 - Michael Andretti anyone ;) :D

wedge
7th July 2009, 16:07
And discovered that he was no better in NASCAR - hence a "return to daddy" - IndyCars.

Good enough to partner Bernd Schneider for AMG in DTM, jumped straight to Kool Green after impressing in the minnow Hogan team in CART.

Dario jumped to NASCAR at the wrong time. Last year Ganassi was struggling to run 2 cars let alone 3.

52Paddy
7th July 2009, 22:56
Andy Wallace.

Marc Hynes.

Alain Ferte.

There have been countless amounts of talented drivers who never made if to F1. This thread was more aimed at drivers who were actually strongly in contention for a seat, maybe even had testing behind them for a team (e.g. Jorg Muller), but never actually got the race opportunity for whatever reason. Drivers (like Gary Brabham) who never managed to qualify because of their car's or their own lack of ability, at least had the opportunity to give it a shot to get onto the grid. Some people didn't even get to do that.

But thanks for the info anyway.

BDunnell
7th July 2009, 22:57
Jan Magnussen comes to mind but for different reasons. SOooooo quick in every other series. Got that one of ride at the Pacific GP in '95 as was anonymous in the mid-field. He was driving a bucket of a mac though so I expected him to show more in his full time seat at Stewart - but sadly he just proved not up to the challenge.

Would he have gone further in a different team, the boss of which didn't attempt to teach him to drive? I'm not sure. Everything one reads about that time, including Magnussen's own words, suggest that he maybe wasn't particularly well-prepared mentally for F1.

BeansBeansBeans
7th July 2009, 23:06
Would he have gone further in a different team, the boss of which didn't attempt to teach him to drive? I'm not sure. Everything one reads about that time, including Magnussen's own words, suggest that he maybe wasn't particularly well-prepared mentally for F1.

There's the famous story of the McLaren team walking through an airport en route to a race when Magnussen's suitcase burst open to reveal all his possesions stuffed in haphazardly and all his clothes scrunched-up. On spying this, the notoriously fastidious Ron Dennis decided he didn't have the right mental make-up for F1 success.

There's also the fact that he was a chain-smoker and had a child very young, which didn't really fit into the modern F1 driver lifestyle.

Nikki Katz
7th July 2009, 23:47
Wasn't Tomas Scheckter himself in line for a Jaguar seat until he was fired for kerb crawling? I think it was only Klien that got the seat in the end, he probably had a reasonable chance.

wedge
8th July 2009, 01:25
Wasn't Tomas Scheckter himself in line for a Jaguar seat until he was fired for kerb crawling? I think it was only Klien that got the seat in the end, he probably had a reasonable chance.

He was Jaguar Junior F3 driver and then got kicked out of their driver development programme and with it F1 testing duties.


There have been countless amounts of talented drivers who never made if to F1. This thread was more aimed at drivers who were actually strongly in contention for a seat, maybe even had testing behind them for a team (e.g. Jorg Muller), but never actually got the race opportunity for whatever reason. Drivers (like Gary Brabham) who never managed to qualify because of their car's or their own lack of ability, at least had the opportunity to give it a shot to get onto the grid. Some people didn't even get to do that.


Paul Tracy tested for Benetton. Was told to shape up and sign up with Flav.

52Paddy
8th July 2009, 18:41
He was Jaguar Junior F3 driver and then got kicked out of their driver development programme and with it F1 testing duties.



Paul Tracy tested for Benetton. Was told to shape up and sign up with Flav.

Really? What year was that?

Jag_Warrior
12th July 2009, 03:51
Really? What year was that?

'94, I believe.

Schumacher was there. And it's said that Michael was really, really helpful. :rolleyes:

12th July 2009, 10:36
'94, I believe.

Schumacher was there. And it's said that Michael was really, really helpful. :rolleyes:

Michael was testing parts that would be used to win a world title.

Apologies if Michael & the Benetton team were concentrating on that at the time.

We really should have got our priorities right.

woody2goody
12th July 2009, 16:40
Eh?
Franchitti was offered nothing. He tested for Jaguar in the wet alongside Tomas Scheckter and he was SLOW.

There were "excuses" muttered but in reality Franchitti has never been f1 material and never considered by anyone. He remained in the United States - nowhere near as difficult a racing environment.

And discovered that he was no better in NASCAR - hence a "return to daddy" - IndyCars.

Gil de Ferran - He did everything at the time required as far as performance - problem was his class of drivers in f3000 were never highly rated and decided against a 3rd year and he never did the financial work many drivers have to do to reach f1. This means striving for sponsorship to get an f1 contract.

He preferred to race in the US being paid.

Hang on. Indycar isn't easy I'm sure about that. You try going wheel to wheel at 220 mph.

In NASCAR, yeah, he was never very good, HOWEVER: his team had no money, the car wasn't in the top 35, he got injured half way through the season, I don't think you can say he couldn't be in F1. he's still good enough it's just age is against him now.

woody2goody
12th July 2009, 16:41
Valentino Rossi. Tests showed he was fast, he could have been better than Kimi ;)

ShiftingGears
12th July 2009, 16:59
Hang on. Indycar isn't easy I'm sure about that. You try going wheel to wheel at 220 mph.

It ain't easy, but the talent pool is a hell of a lot shallower.

Jag_Warrior
14th July 2009, 06:25
Michael was testing parts that would be used to win a world title.

Apologies if Michael & the Benetton team were concentrating on that at the time.

We really should have got our priorities right.

Two sides to every story, old stick.

philipbain
26th July 2009, 00:00
We could also have an equally long thread of pants drivers who did make it to F1 - Michael Andretti anyone ;) :D

I think that's a little harsh, I think Michael had the talent to drive F1 he just didn't have the commitment, he was unwilling to base himself in Europe which is more or less essential when you are driving for a British team. Also he suffered from cost containment regulations in '93 which are now long forgotten which gave a strict limit on the number of laps a driver could complete in each session which didn't help a driver that was unfamiliar with the circuits (these were the days before the teams had simulators). Another factor was Mika Hakkinen, Mika performed so brilliantly as McLaren test driver in '93 that he was the natural choice for the team when they were testing rather than calling up Michael as he wasn't even on the same continent, which affected the test mileage that Michael got throughout the season. Michael's last race was also his F1 high point, a podium finish at Monza, and although he may not have been championship material in F1 I would give him the credit to say that he wasn't out of his depth either.

gm99
26th July 2009, 00:24
'94, I believe.



Yes, Tracy tested the Benetton-Ford at Estoril in Sept. 1994 and apparently did almost identical lap times to then #2 driver J.J. Lehto. He was offered a three-year-contract, but without a guarantee that he would actually race, which is why he turned down the deal and returned to IndyCar.

Alfica
2nd September 2009, 15:49
Martin Brundle - was the only one who was able to match the pace of Ayrton Senna in British F3 - do i need to say more?!

Mike Thackwell - great talent, but drove only in poor cars.

Francois Cevert - what a driver... but died way too soon.

ClarkFan
2nd September 2009, 16:18
Yes, Tracy tested the Benetton-Ford at Estoril in Sept. 1994 and apparently did almost identical lap times to then #2 driver J.J. Lehto. He was offered a three-year-contract, but without a guarantee that he would actually race, which is why he turned down the deal and returned to IndyCar.

Benetton already had a resident crasher - Jos Verstappen. :) And in the end they signed Johnny Herbert for 1995 and he even won a couple of races.

ClarkFan

ArrowsFA1
2nd September 2009, 16:23
Franchitti was offered nothing. He tested for Jaguar in the wet alongside Tomas Scheckter and he was SLOW.

There were "excuses" muttered but in reality Franchitti has never been f1 material and never considered by anyone. He remained in the United States - nowhere near as difficult a racing environment.
Interesting.

It seems ages ago now, and I haven't re-read anything about it, but IIRC there was talk of a Franchitti/Jaguar test for sometime before it ever happened. Whether the test was offered by Stewart, then delayed as the team became Ford/Jaguar, who knows, but it seemed to take a long time to happen. When it did finally happen I don't remember Dario being "slow", nor do I remember him setting stunningly quick times. My impression of the test was that Jaguar felt obliged to run him and so weren't particularly interested in making it a meaningful test.

As for a comparison with Tomas Scheckter, just compare their Indycar careers.

ClarkFan
2nd September 2009, 16:25
I think that's a little harsh, I think Michael had the talent to drive F1 he just didn't have the commitment, he was unwilling to base himself in Europe which is more or less essential when you are driving for a British team. Also he suffered from cost containment regulations in '93 which are now long forgotten which gave a strict limit on the number of laps a driver could complete in each session which didn't help a driver that was unfamiliar with the circuits (these were the days before the teams had simulators). Another factor was Mika Hakkinen, Mika performed so brilliantly as McLaren test driver in '93 that he was the natural choice for the team when they were testing rather than calling up Michael as he wasn't even on the same continent, which affected the test mileage that Michael got throughout the season. Michael's last race was also his F1 high point, a podium finish at Monza, and although he may not have been championship material in F1 I would give him the credit to say that he wasn't out of his depth either.
Andretti also got "done wrong" by Ron Dennis trying to play engine politics and losing. Dennis wanted Mika for #2 all along, but saw signing Andretti as a chance to get the same top tier Ford engines that Benetton was receiving for sticking with Ford through lean years in 1988-1992. With Honda's late dropping of their engines, Ron was at the back of the Ford line for 1993 and he hoped that having an Andretti would move him to the front. When that manuever failed, Dennis no longer had any use/time for Andretti.

ClarkFan

Helstar
2nd September 2009, 17:19
Loeb !

ykiki
3rd September 2009, 07:58
Tom Kristensen

DexDexter
3rd September 2009, 10:19
I think that's a little harsh, I think Michael had the talent to drive F1 he just didn't have the commitment, he was unwilling to base himself in Europe which is more or less essential when you are driving for a British team. Also he suffered from cost containment regulations in '93 which are now long forgotten which gave a strict limit on the number of laps a driver could complete in each session which didn't help a driver that was unfamiliar with the circuits (these were the days before the teams had simulators). Another factor was Mika Hakkinen, Mika performed so brilliantly as McLaren test driver in '93 that he was the natural choice for the team when they were testing rather than calling up Michael as he wasn't even on the same continent, which affected the test mileage that Michael got throughout the season. Michael's last race was also his F1 high point, a podium finish at Monza, and although he may not have been championship material in F1 I would give him the credit to say that he wasn't out of his depth either.

Talking about Mika Häkkinen, he put his three-year old Lotus 13th on the grid in his first GP after a few testing laps at Silverstone. The strict limit on laps in practice isn't a good excuse compared to that. It's clear that Andretti wasn't a top talent.


Yes, Tracy tested the Benetton-Ford at Estoril in Sept. 1994 and apparently did almost identical lap times to then #2 driver J.J. Lehto. He was offered a three-year-contract, but without a guarantee that he would actually race, which is why he turned down the deal and returned to IndyCar.

JJ Lehto himself was a case of missed opportunity, he had that terrible accident in testing at Silverstone early 94 which almost left him paralysed. Wasn't the same man after that.

Anubis
4th September 2009, 01:27
Kenny Brack? I'll admit I've trawled Wikipedia for this, as although I remember him in F3000, I had no idea he very nearly won it or was an F1 test driver. Obviously most people remember him for that crash at Texas.

philipbain
6th September 2009, 11:30
Talking about Mika Häkkinen, he put his three-year old Lotus 13th on the grid in his first GP after a few testing laps at Silverstone. The strict limit on laps in practice isn't a good excuse compared to that. It's clear that Andretti wasn't a top talent.

But that was my point exactly, Mika Hakkinen was very much championship material, he won 2 infact, back to back! All I was saying that whilst Andretti wasnt F1 championship material he was more able and competant than the results showed.

Lennat
6th September 2009, 15:18
Kenny Brack? I'll admit I've trawled Wikipedia for this, as although I remember him in F3000, I had no idea he very nearly won it or was an F1 test driver. Obviously most people remember him for that crash at Texas.

He was pretty good in the US, won the IRL in 1998, and Indy 500 in 99. Went to CART afterwards and was a title contender there as well with a runner up place in the championship. Might have been able to succeed in F1, but on the other hand Arrows would propably have kept him if he were that good.

Saint Devote
6th September 2009, 16:18
Anyone here also recall [drum rolls....] Paul Tracy testing for Benetton?

His times were good in Spain but he had to decide between the Flavio sort of method and promise of a drive after testing for a year or signing immediately for Penske in the CART series.

Maybe he did not really consider f1 an option - it was not f1's loss.

Saint Devote
6th September 2009, 16:22
One driver that WAS lost to f1 and it is a regret for all who love racing is the great Rick Mears.

In 1981 he was tested by Bernie Ecclestone in the Piquet Brabham and I do not recall the numbers but in his very FIRST laps in teh car he was fractions of a time slower than the Brazilian and soon to be world champion.

I dont remember what the situation was but it was a contractural issue.

People have to give credit to Bernie that while he was a successful world championhip winning team owner, he spotted and was always ready first with a contract where to drivers are concerned: Senna and Mears for a start.

I read some time ago that Bernie has always regretted the one the got away - Mears. And I agree.

ArrowsFA1
8th September 2009, 09:30
I dont remember what the situation was but it was a contractural issue.
Wasn't it that Mears had a good life in the States and was getting paid for his racing. He was somewhat surprised to learn he would have to pay for the Brabham seat so decided to stay put.

ArrowsFA1
8th September 2009, 11:29
One driver that WAS lost to f1 and it is a regret for all who love racing is the great Rick Mears.
Here's a few photos of the Mears test at Riverside in 1980:

http://www.motorracingphotographs.com/galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=17

Saint Devote
8th September 2009, 12:18
Wasn't it that Mears had a good life in the States and was getting paid for his racing. He was somewhat surprised to learn he would have to pay for the Brabham seat so decided to stay put.

I honestly do not remember you may well be correct - but it might have been a sponsor issue and contract because it was Bernie that wanted him in the Brabham.

Whatever occurred Rick Mears would have been a great f1 driver. Such a pity.

I also recall that Mears suffered leg injuries and when he tried an f1 car again it was just too painful when breaking. Heard that?

Saint Devote
8th September 2009, 12:23
Check out post 21 old bean... :)

Missed that one in my haste! :o

A succinct post.

Upon reflection I wonder if Tracy had the temperament for f1 because he was a wild performer during his years in CART - although an exciting driver.

Saint Devote
8th September 2009, 12:25
Here's a few photos of the Mears test at Riverside in 1980:

http://www.motorracingphotographs.com/galleries/main.php?g2_itemId=17

Excellent - thanks for posting that! :D

Saint Devote
8th September 2009, 12:35
Tom Kristensen

I absolutely agree.

But at least he was not lost to racing and is a great sportscar champion.